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I consider HN users to be smarter and rational than average internet crowd. Surprised to see folks here comparing the Google Apple store to other business model

I consider HN users to be smarter and rational than average internet crowd. Surprised to see folks here comparing the Google Apple store to other business models like Starbucks, Donut shops, Restaurants? does not make sense to me. Consumers have a choice to switch all other businesses but not the mobile app stores. I can live without Starbucks or Netflix if I want to, or switch to different providers if needed. But there's no such an option in mobile app store world. My banks, wearable devices, even many government services provide their apps via Apple/Android app stores and I'm forced to use only these app stores.. ignoring mobile and just using browsers is not practical. At this point, the app stores are monopolies and consumers are the ones who are impacted. Let Apple/Google give a top notch app store and claim it to be more secure, reliable, trust worthy (they are not today).. but let them also give other options to consumers if they want to take the risk and download apps from another app store if they want to. And these are already trillion dollar companies. Why do some people support them to grow even more bigger and more powerful? It's a nightmare to see power getting accumulated into few hands. It's high time they are regulated. Don't treat them with kid gloves. They are not your typical mom & pop stores.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
TBF Google does have alternative app stores. That's why people who didn't read the article or lawsuit are confused that this lawsuit succeeded but Apple failed. Of course all this fails to take into account why Google actually loss. it was using that monopolistic pressure to push away OEM deals. That's defintiely where the monopoly was being used anti-competitively. But yea, really would like both mobile OS's to open up more. Apple is especially bad because they can effectively ban stuff of an entire OS if it doesn't follow store policies. no 18+ apps, no emulators, no file explorers (tho these two were loosened overtime), no alternate browsers unless it's a safari skin. Can't imagine Microsoft getting away with this on Windows at any time.
EchoReflection 3y ago
worse, Apple and Google worked together (without the public knowing, of course) "as if they were one company". https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-20/apple-google-worked-as-one-company-on-search-deal-u-s-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-20/apple-goo... https://www.benzinga.com/news/23/11/35888191/apple-google-wanted-a-deep-deep-partnership-and-to-work-as-if-we-are-one-company https://www.benzinga.com/news/23/11/35888191/apple-google-wa... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-search-antitrust.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-s... https://www.businessinsider.com/google-apple-deal-default-search-engine-chatgpt-2023-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/google-apple-deal-default-se... the sources go on and on, which makes sense, I guess. when two of the world's biggest and most powerful companies have interests that overlap (exclude any OS that isn't Android or iOS) collusion seems like a natural choice.
niutech 3y ago
You don't need to have Android/iOS. You can access webmail, bank accounts, Netflix using web browser on an open source platform like Ubuntu Touch or Sailfish OS. I am using both just fine and both support Android apps.
jojobas 3y ago
FWIW you don't really need an app store, you could download APKs off vendors/publishers, verify signatures and mind updates (except Apple won't let you, but that's a different story). You want to use an app store, fine, use an app store and pay some commission on what you buy there, it's not a problem, reaching into any purchase done after the initial download is.
- Oras 3y ago
  > you don't really need an app store > except Apple won't let you, but that's a different story You're saying you can comment, but no one will give you access to the keyboard?
  - jojobas 3y ago
    The whole discussion is about Google, they do let you use whatever store, and also let you compile and deploy your own Android if you're up for the task and your phone manufacturer allows you to boot what you want. I'd too prefer Apple to be forced by court to open their devices for everything, not holding my breath.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      you may be able to breathe one day on that aspect. Sounds like the EU is putting groundwork to do that exact thing on IOS.
- UtahDave 3y ago
  Many applications such as banking applications are only available in the official app store.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    Google is not to blame for the fact that your bank won't trust you to verify an apk signature. There's no fundamental need for the OS vendor to oversee app distribution.
turtlebits 3y ago
Customers don't necessarily want a choice. Sometimes choice equates to complexity, if it doesn't work for you, don't use the product. Apple is very well known (and probably very successful) for limiting choice, in product lines and features. IMO Android devices are already open enough - there are alternative app stores and you can sideload apps. Banks not distributing on these channels is not Google's responsibility.
- berkes 3y ago
  > Customers don't necessarily want a choice. But that's not a requirement for something to be a monopoly.
- felipelemos 3y ago
  > Customers don't necessarily want a choice. I was going to say that it's something for them to decide, but then the conversation was going to be circular. Nobody should have the right to not have a right.
- crowcroft 3y ago
  Take it a step further – the power grid. I don't want to have to choose which power grid to use, and we shouldn't bother making duplicate power grids. It makes sense they operate as a monopoly. Those companies are heavily regulated though.
  - Guvante 3y ago
    > Those companies are heavily regulated though Without that regulation it is a very different beast. Having the government decide the platform cut would very much change the conversation.
- secf4ult 3y ago
  It's right and wrong at the same time, you can only say "most of the customers don't want a choice", so we just gonna ignore the minority and let big companies take all the cake?
- int_19h 3y ago
ryao 3y ago
The average person needs safeguards to prevent them from being tricked into installing malware by seemingly trustworthy black hats. They should not be given devices that lack safeguards. That means having a gatekeeper that curates things. Be it Apple or Google, a gate keeper is a necessity for security. Even for non-average people, gatekeepers like Gentoo's or Debian's package maintainer(s) do a great deal of good.
- beenBoutIT 3y ago
  Exactly - the fundamental problem is that it takes an above average person to understand this. Tech is something that most lawmakers, judges, attorneys and jurors don't get and asking them to regulate it is a mistake. They'll open up the floodgates and average people will end up dealing with fake Epic apps. A decade from now maybe that same courtroom would better appreciate the value of a trusted gatekeeper.
- Nathanba 3y ago
  Those safeguards should be on a technical level and with the human gatekeepers being swappable for whoever you trust most. Which is what different app stores effectively do: different human rating, moderation and trust descriptions.
- nitwit005 3y ago
  The monopoly isn't necessary for that though. It can just present you with choices of app store during phone setup. It's not like some Amazon app store is going to be automatically less secure.
- martin82 3y ago
  The free market would have created many trustworthy gatekeepers itself. And given how much scammy shit there is on the two major AppStores, I would say that it is clear as day and night that Apple and Google utterly suck as "gatekeepers".
  - grok25 3y ago
    [dead]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

johnnyanmac 3y ago

TBF Google does have alternative app stores. That's why people who didn't read the article or lawsuit are confused that this lawsuit succeeded but Apple failed. Of course all this fails to take into account why Google actually loss. it was using that monopolistic pressure to push away OEM deals. That's defintiely where the monopoly was being used anti-competitively. But yea, really would like both mobile OS's to open up more. Apple is especially bad because they can effectively ban stuff of an entire OS if it doesn't follow store policies. no 18+ apps, no emulators, no file explorers (tho these two were loosened overtime), no alternate browsers unless it's a safari skin. Can't imagine Microsoft getting away with this on Windows at any time.

EchoReflection 3y ago

worse, Apple and Google worked together (without the public knowing, of course) "as if they were one company". https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-20/apple-google-worked-as-one-company-on-search-deal-u-s-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-20/apple-goo... https://www.benzinga.com/news/23/11/35888191/apple-google-wanted-a-deep-deep-partnership-and-to-work-as-if-we-are-one-company https://www.benzinga.com/news/23/11/35888191/apple-google-wa... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-search-antitrust.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-s... https://www.businessinsider.com/google-apple-deal-default-search-engine-chatgpt-2023-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/google-apple-deal-default-se... the sources go on and on, which makes sense, I guess. when two of the world's biggest and most powerful companies have interests that overlap (exclude any OS that isn't Android or iOS) collusion seems like a natural choice.

niutech 3y ago

You don't need to have Android/iOS. You can access webmail, bank accounts, Netflix using web browser on an open source platform like Ubuntu Touch or Sailfish OS. I am using both just fine and both support Android apps.

jojobas 3y ago

FWIW you don't really need an app store, you could download APKs off vendors/publishers, verify signatures and mind updates (except Apple won't let you, but that's a different story). You want to use an app store, fine, use an app store and pay some commission on what you buy there, it's not a problem, reaching into any purchase done after the initial download is.

Oras 3y ago
> you don't really need an app store > except Apple won't let you, but that's a different story You're saying you can comment, but no one will give you access to the keyboard?
- jojobas 3y ago
  The whole discussion is about Google, they do let you use whatever store, and also let you compile and deploy your own Android if you're up for the task and your phone manufacturer allows you to boot what you want. I'd too prefer Apple to be forced by court to open their devices for everything, not holding my breath.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    you may be able to breathe one day on that aspect. Sounds like the EU is putting groundwork to do that exact thing on IOS.
UtahDave 3y ago
Many applications such as banking applications are only available in the official app store.
- jojobas 3y ago
  Google is not to blame for the fact that your bank won't trust you to verify an apk signature. There's no fundamental need for the OS vendor to oversee app distribution.

turtlebits 3y ago

Customers don't necessarily want a choice. Sometimes choice equates to complexity, if it doesn't work for you, don't use the product. Apple is very well known (and probably very successful) for limiting choice, in product lines and features. IMO Android devices are already open enough - there are alternative app stores and you can sideload apps. Banks not distributing on these channels is not Google's responsibility.

berkes 3y ago
> Customers don't necessarily want a choice. But that's not a requirement for something to be a monopoly.
felipelemos 3y ago
> Customers don't necessarily want a choice. I was going to say that it's something for them to decide, but then the conversation was going to be circular. Nobody should have the right to not have a right.
crowcroft 3y ago
Take it a step further – the power grid. I don't want to have to choose which power grid to use, and we shouldn't bother making duplicate power grids. It makes sense they operate as a monopoly. Those companies are heavily regulated though.
- Guvante 3y ago
  > Those companies are heavily regulated though Without that regulation it is a very different beast. Having the government decide the platform cut would very much change the conversation.
secf4ult 3y ago
It's right and wrong at the same time, you can only say "most of the customers don't want a choice", so we just gonna ignore the minority and let big companies take all the cake?
int_19h 3y ago

ryao 3y ago

The average person needs safeguards to prevent them from being tricked into installing malware by seemingly trustworthy black hats. They should not be given devices that lack safeguards. That means having a gatekeeper that curates things. Be it Apple or Google, a gate keeper is a necessity for security. Even for non-average people, gatekeepers like Gentoo's or Debian's package maintainer(s) do a great deal of good.

beenBoutIT 3y ago
Exactly - the fundamental problem is that it takes an above average person to understand this. Tech is something that most lawmakers, judges, attorneys and jurors don't get and asking them to regulate it is a mistake. They'll open up the floodgates and average people will end up dealing with fake Epic apps. A decade from now maybe that same courtroom would better appreciate the value of a trusted gatekeeper.
Nathanba 3y ago
Those safeguards should be on a technical level and with the human gatekeepers being swappable for whoever you trust most. Which is what different app stores effectively do: different human rating, moderation and trust descriptions.
nitwit005 3y ago
The monopoly isn't necessary for that though. It can just present you with choices of app store during phone setup. It's not like some Amazon app store is going to be automatically less secure.
martin82 3y ago
The free market would have created many trustworthy gatekeepers itself. And given how much scammy shit there is on the two major AppStores, I would say that it is clear as day and night that Apple and Google utterly suck as "gatekeepers".
- grok25 3y ago
  [dead]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]