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Hmm, I don't remember writing "fuck you all" in my post. I'm just talking about there being different domains in play here. Different domains have different nee

by pelle 18y ago

Hmm, I don't remember writing "fuck you all" in my post. I'm just talking about there being different domains in play here. Different domains have different needs. System management thanks in many ways to the great work of Debian but also virtualization has become a commodity more or less. Over the last 30+ years the best tools for the job have become more or less standardized. Which is great. The application development space is a lot more dynamic though. You can not expect all unix sysadmins to know all about all the different programming languages packages. There is just too much for there to be a single gate keeper now. The world is changing and for the better. Deal with it.

old-gregg 18y ago
No, it's not about Linux sysadmins but rather about writing a robust software. Aptitude is an application, just like your Rails app, written by very very smart programmers. And those developers are moving at exactly same "tremendous speed" as you are, and their "core DNA" is not a bit slower than yours, and results of their work is as much of a "commodity" as yours. I suggest you re-read articles you linked in your post, because they explain why RubyGems has issues and needs fixing, something you haven't even addressed. Your post basically says "YOUR work is commodity, YOU are moving slower than us, while MY developemnt is fast and bleeding age, YOU should get over your priorities and ME should continue as I please". You even went as far as calling someone on "spreading FUD" while in reality Gunnar is absolutely right: RubyGems is dangerous on production systems and I dare you run sudo gem update --system on a server that your paycheck depends on. While sudo aptitude safe-upgrade runs pretty much automatically on thousands of mission critical Debian-based deployments. That's not FUD, pelle, that's called high-quality engineering.
- pelle 18y ago
  Hold your horses Gregg. Maybe my language skills are not what they should be. Because that is not what I am attempting to say. I do not in any way mean to offend anyone. All I am attempting to say is that different people have different needs. What I am saying is that there is a difference between the requirements of an OS and of a Web application. Aptitude is stricly speeking an application, but it is also system software. My work depends on the Debian and OpenBSD guys being conservative and creating solid defaults. I want them to be so, as I don't want to deal with that. I am fanatic about OpenBSD myself, which is way more conservative and opinionated than Debian. I have spent years working with servers, being forced to do low level work. My main dev machine was Gentoo for many years. I understand the issues. Complex systems are based on layers. The Internet for example is based on layers. The lower the layer the more conservative it should be. The higher layers are more diverse and allow greater flexibility. After all I didn't choose Ubuntu to run several of my servers for the sake of running Ubuntu. I choose them because I need a stable server OS that I can deploy my applications on. For someone who is a core Debian developer that might be different. Maybe he does choose Debian for the sake of running Debian. All I want for them to do is not break what I and 90% of other Ruby developers are doing. Also this is not just Rails. Almost all Ruby developers depend on Gem. FUD is when you say something is dangerous without giving further reasons. So far in this debate, I have seen lots of people say RubyGem is flawed, but so far the only argument I have seen is that it doesn't follow FHS. I can live without Debian unbreaking their RubyGem package. I am not scared to install from source. But I still don't understand the reasoning behind it. If they don't want to support real RubyGems it would be better for Debian users to remove the package all together as opposed to the trojan horse version of ruby gems that it is.

by pelle 18y ago

old-gregg 18y ago

No, it's not about Linux sysadmins but rather about writing a robust software. Aptitude is an application, just like your Rails app, written by very very smart programmers. And those developers are moving at exactly same "tremendous speed" as you are, and their "core DNA" is not a bit slower than yours, and results of their work is as much of a "commodity" as yours. I suggest you re-read articles you linked in your post, because they explain why RubyGems has issues and needs fixing, something you haven't even addressed. Your post basically says "YOUR work is commodity, YOU are moving slower than us, while MY developemnt is fast and bleeding age, YOU should get over your priorities and ME should continue as I please". You even went as far as calling someone on "spreading FUD" while in reality Gunnar is absolutely right: RubyGems is dangerous on production systems and I dare you run sudo gem update --system on a server that your paycheck depends on. While sudo aptitude safe-upgrade runs pretty much automatically on thousands of mission critical Debian-based deployments. That's not FUD, pelle, that's called high-quality engineering.

pelle 18y ago
Hold your horses Gregg. Maybe my language skills are not what they should be. Because that is not what I am attempting to say. I do not in any way mean to offend anyone. All I am attempting to say is that different people have different needs. What I am saying is that there is a difference between the requirements of an OS and of a Web application. Aptitude is stricly speeking an application, but it is also system software. My work depends on the Debian and OpenBSD guys being conservative and creating solid defaults. I want them to be so, as I don't want to deal with that. I am fanatic about OpenBSD myself, which is way more conservative and opinionated than Debian. I have spent years working with servers, being forced to do low level work. My main dev machine was Gentoo for many years. I understand the issues. Complex systems are based on layers. The Internet for example is based on layers. The lower the layer the more conservative it should be. The higher layers are more diverse and allow greater flexibility. After all I didn't choose Ubuntu to run several of my servers for the sake of running Ubuntu. I choose them because I need a stable server OS that I can deploy my applications on. For someone who is a core Debian developer that might be different. Maybe he does choose Debian for the sake of running Debian. All I want for them to do is not break what I and 90% of other Ruby developers are doing. Also this is not just Rails. Almost all Ruby developers depend on Gem. FUD is when you say something is dangerous without giving further reasons. So far in this debate, I have seen lots of people say RubyGem is flawed, but so far the only argument I have seen is that it doesn't follow FHS. I can live without Debian unbreaking their RubyGem package. I am not scared to install from source. But I still don't understand the reasoning behind it. If they don't want to support real RubyGems it would be better for Debian users to remove the package all together as opposed to the trojan horse version of ruby gems that it is.