3 ms·

People figured out how to build buildings prior to creating building codes

baseballdork 3y ago
And people figured out how to fly prior to the FAA. So what?
helsinkiandrew 3y ago
And many buildings were built deliberately poorly to make a quick buck - or caught fire too easily or fell down in minor earthquakes (or worse damage other property/people). Peoples homes are a major financial commitment and can ruin people if they're not up to scratch. The regulations are to ensure the 10% of bad builders/developers don't ruin peoples lives.
- wolvesechoes 3y ago
  And yet, poorly build buildings are still being build, but at least now it is much harder and much more expensive for a person to build their own house, and for a small construction companies to compete with giant monopolies. Yay!
  - bumby 3y ago
    "Poorly build [sic] buildings" depends on context. Even low-quality builds in the US are relatively safe. It's disingenuous to imply they are of the same quality as in countries where building codes are effectively non-existent.
  - IlliOnato 3y ago
    Well, it's not black and white. Regulation hinders progress and makes things more expensive. But no regulation raises costs and hinders progress too: it basically creates a situation of very low trust, and low trust is extremely expensive for customers/buyers who are not domain experts. This also makes them overcautious and conservative. One needs a balance and lots of nuance to make a reasonably well functioning market/system. The case against regulation on software business is not that "regulation is bad". It's that programming and software is very new and rapidly evolving area of human activity. It's not nearly as well understood as building houses. Written and unwritten standards and best practices are constantly changing. The field is subject to very strong fashion-driven "crazes". (Just look at how many new languages are still being created. Most don't become as widespread as C++ or Java or Python, but many do find their niche, and very many are in use to some extent. This indicates that "language Holy Graal" is nowhere to be seen yet.) In software, there is very little consensus between domain experts on most issues. This is very unlike construction and house building, where some new materials ant techniques are introduced too, but the basic principles are well understood, calculable, and where agreement among experts is usually quite achievable. So arguably it's nearly impossible to create good regulation at this stage, at least outside of certain special niches. This is very different from building codes and stuff. Of course there is also bad regulation. The bureaucracy likes to expand their control indefinitely, wants to regulate things that should not be regulated, thus (if unchecked) creating very bad regulation. Well, that's the case for checks and balances, for the society to fight back. But "this regulation is bad and needs to be changed" is a much more mature position than "we need no f*g regulation!", in my opinion...
jhardy54 3y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collap...
YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_London Building a building without regulation is easy. Building a city that doesn't burn to the ground every time someone knocks over an oil lamp is not.
RhodesianHunter 3y ago
People also died, a lot.
bumby 3y ago
Define "figured out." Did people know how to cobble together a structure? Of course. Did they inherently know all the best practices that reasonably balance safety, cost, and timeliness? Probably not. The same can be applied to software. An ability to cobble together a "Hello World" does not necessarily mean I want you programming a controls system on a nuclear power plant.

And people figured out how to fly prior to the FAA. So what?

And many buildings were built deliberately poorly to make a quick buck - or caught fire too easily or fell down in minor earthquakes (or worse damage other property/people). Peoples homes are a major financial commitment and can ruin people if they're not up to scratch. The regulations are to ensure the 10% of bad builders/developers don't ruin peoples lives.

wolvesechoes 3y ago
And yet, poorly build buildings are still being build, but at least now it is much harder and much more expensive for a person to build their own house, and for a small construction companies to compete with giant monopolies. Yay!
- bumby 3y ago
  "Poorly build [sic] buildings" depends on context. Even low-quality builds in the US are relatively safe. It's disingenuous to imply they are of the same quality as in countries where building codes are effectively non-existent.
- IlliOnato 3y ago
  Well, it's not black and white. Regulation hinders progress and makes things more expensive. But no regulation raises costs and hinders progress too: it basically creates a situation of very low trust, and low trust is extremely expensive for customers/buyers who are not domain experts. This also makes them overcautious and conservative. One needs a balance and lots of nuance to make a reasonably well functioning market/system. The case against regulation on software business is not that "regulation is bad". It's that programming and software is very new and rapidly evolving area of human activity. It's not nearly as well understood as building houses. Written and unwritten standards and best practices are constantly changing. The field is subject to very strong fashion-driven "crazes". (Just look at how many new languages are still being created. Most don't become as widespread as C++ or Java or Python, but many do find their niche, and very many are in use to some extent. This indicates that "language Holy Graal" is nowhere to be seen yet.) In software, there is very little consensus between domain experts on most issues. This is very unlike construction and house building, where some new materials ant techniques are introduced too, but the basic principles are well understood, calculable, and where agreement among experts is usually quite achievable. So arguably it's nearly impossible to create good regulation at this stage, at least outside of certain special niches. This is very different from building codes and stuff. Of course there is also bad regulation. The bureaucracy likes to expand their control indefinitely, wants to regulate things that should not be regulated, thus (if unchecked) creating very bad regulation. Well, that's the case for checks and balances, for the society to fight back. But "this regulation is bad and needs to be changed" is a much more mature position than "we need no f*g regulation!", in my opinion...

jhardy54 3y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collap...

YurgenJurgensen 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_London Building a building without regulation is easy. Building a city that doesn't burn to the ground every time someone knocks over an oil lamp is not.

RhodesianHunter 3y ago

People also died, a lot.

bumby 3y ago

Define "figured out." Did people know how to cobble together a structure? Of course. Did they inherently know all the best practices that reasonably balance safety, cost, and timeliness? Probably not. The same can be applied to software. An ability to cobble together a "Hello World" does not necessarily mean I want you programming a controls system on a nuclear power plant.