4 ms·

This makes me sad, if the guy figured it out on his own - I don't see what the problem is.

StavrosK 15y ago
It's probably more about the performance being identical than the trick being discovered.
naner 15y ago
Bakardy sells a kit—including a fake rose, instructions, and a DVD—for about $3,000. Teller had Bakardy's video removed with a DMCA takedown notice, then called Bakardy to demand that the magician stop using his routine. Teller offered to buy Bakardy out, but they were unable to agree on a price. So Teller sued Bakardy last week in a Nevada federal court. It looks like Teller is upset at the crass commercializaiton of his work.
- michaelbuckbee 15y ago
  Which is interesting as Penn & Teller have made a career out of showing how tricks are done (and being so skilled that even when you know how it is done you are still amazed).
  - glenra 15y ago
    > Penn & Teller have made a career out of showing how tricks are done No they haven't. P&T don't really show how tricks are done. They especially don't reveal big secrets used by other magicians. The notion that they're doing something transgressive that makes other magicians dislike them is just a schtick they came up with for publicity purposes. When P&T do "reveals" they are usually mock reveals - revealing a technique that they're not actually using which often was invented specifically for the purpose of being revealed. Or they're "revealing" something that everybody already knows which in no way detracts from the enjoyment of the trick. And sometimes they're just riffing on the psychology of magic, showing us how even when you're trying hard not to be fooled you can still fool yourself. (The clear Cups And Balls might be an exception to this general rule. That's the only one I can think of that more-or-less fits your description.)
- YmMot 15y ago
  There are very few illusions in magic that are not for sale, it's how a lot of non-famous magicians make a living and how many magicians who are just starting fill out their act. So I don't think the issue here is the commercialization of magic per se, or even the fact that this guy recreated the illusion...but the fact that he deliberately recreated the entire performance from Teller rather than using his reverse engineering of it to create a new illusion.
  - naner 15y ago
    I know that Teller isn't opposed to the commercialization of his magic since that's how he makes his living. The problem is he invests a ton of time, money, sweat, and tears into creating these tricks. Then this other magician packages it up and sells it for 3 grand. That's got to be quite a hit to the gut to Teller. And the issue is that he recreated this illusion. Teller claims he copyrighted the trick nearly 30 years ago and has been performing it since the late 70s.
    - YmMot 15y ago
      Right. Though Teller probably makes most of his money from performance rather than selling tricks. I know P&T do a lot of their own research and creating their own illusions, they may sometimes sell them to other pros but I doubt they engage in the large scale "kit" selling a lot of the less famous magicians do. The problem here is telling how much of this Teller can lay claim to. He has been performing it a long time, and it's one of his signature tricks. However, the heart of the trick is not terribly original. Illusions where a drawing or shadow interact with/mirror real life objects are very common and old. What teller did was take a unique version of it with a rose and package it up into a whole performance piece...and I think the issue is that this guy took that wholesale and is selling it basically as "Teller's rose trick" rather than using his knowledge of how the trick worked to create something similar but still unique. The former is troubling, but without allowing the latter professional magic would grind to a halt.
tzs 15y ago
It may be easier to understand if cast in software terms. Suppose you come up with a clever algorithm for some problem people consider important. For instance, suppose you've got a clever new algorithm for matching people for romance. You set up an online dating site using your algorithm. Now someone else comes along, uses your site, looks at the matches your site is producing, and figures out your algorithm. He decides to set up his own dating site. No problem so far. Your algorithm (assuming you did not patent it) is protected at most by trade secret. If he gets it by being smart enough to infer it from your site, and there was no contract that prohibits that, he is free to use it. He can design his own web site, powered on the back end by his own implementation of the algorithm, and you have no legitimate complaint. However, instead of designing his own site, he just copies the design of your site. The whole site is basically a clone of yours. He even advertises his site by referring to yours by name, and proclaiming their equivalence. That's the problem here. Teller figured out a clever trick. That corresponds to the algorithm. Then he came up with a theatrical performance to present an illusion built upon the trick. That's like the web site. The other guy figured out the trick. He's then free to come up with an original theatrical performance built around some original illusion using that trick. What he appears to have done, though, is simply take Teller's theatrical performance.

It's probably more about the performance being identical than the trick being discovered.

naner 15y ago

Bakardy sells a kit—including a fake rose, instructions, and a DVD—for about $3,000. Teller had Bakardy's video removed with a DMCA takedown notice, then called Bakardy to demand that the magician stop using his routine. Teller offered to buy Bakardy out, but they were unable to agree on a price. So Teller sued Bakardy last week in a Nevada federal court. It looks like Teller is upset at the crass commercializaiton of his work.

michaelbuckbee 15y ago
Which is interesting as Penn & Teller have made a career out of showing how tricks are done (and being so skilled that even when you know how it is done you are still amazed).
- glenra 15y ago
  > Penn & Teller have made a career out of showing how tricks are done No they haven't. P&T don't really show how tricks are done. They especially don't reveal big secrets used by other magicians. The notion that they're doing something transgressive that makes other magicians dislike them is just a schtick they came up with for publicity purposes. When P&T do "reveals" they are usually mock reveals - revealing a technique that they're not actually using which often was invented specifically for the purpose of being revealed. Or they're "revealing" something that everybody already knows which in no way detracts from the enjoyment of the trick. And sometimes they're just riffing on the psychology of magic, showing us how even when you're trying hard not to be fooled you can still fool yourself. (The clear Cups And Balls might be an exception to this general rule. That's the only one I can think of that more-or-less fits your description.)
YmMot 15y ago
There are very few illusions in magic that are not for sale, it's how a lot of non-famous magicians make a living and how many magicians who are just starting fill out their act. So I don't think the issue here is the commercialization of magic per se, or even the fact that this guy recreated the illusion...but the fact that he deliberately recreated the entire performance from Teller rather than using his reverse engineering of it to create a new illusion.
- naner 15y ago
  I know that Teller isn't opposed to the commercialization of his magic since that's how he makes his living. The problem is he invests a ton of time, money, sweat, and tears into creating these tricks. Then this other magician packages it up and sells it for 3 grand. That's got to be quite a hit to the gut to Teller. And the issue is that he recreated this illusion. Teller claims he copyrighted the trick nearly 30 years ago and has been performing it since the late 70s.
  - YmMot 15y ago
    Right. Though Teller probably makes most of his money from performance rather than selling tricks. I know P&T do a lot of their own research and creating their own illusions, they may sometimes sell them to other pros but I doubt they engage in the large scale "kit" selling a lot of the less famous magicians do. The problem here is telling how much of this Teller can lay claim to. He has been performing it a long time, and it's one of his signature tricks. However, the heart of the trick is not terribly original. Illusions where a drawing or shadow interact with/mirror real life objects are very common and old. What teller did was take a unique version of it with a rose and package it up into a whole performance piece...and I think the issue is that this guy took that wholesale and is selling it basically as "Teller's rose trick" rather than using his knowledge of how the trick worked to create something similar but still unique. The former is troubling, but without allowing the latter professional magic would grind to a halt.

tzs 15y ago

It may be easier to understand if cast in software terms. Suppose you come up with a clever algorithm for some problem people consider important. For instance, suppose you've got a clever new algorithm for matching people for romance. You set up an online dating site using your algorithm. Now someone else comes along, uses your site, looks at the matches your site is producing, and figures out your algorithm. He decides to set up his own dating site. No problem so far. Your algorithm (assuming you did not patent it) is protected at most by trade secret. If he gets it by being smart enough to infer it from your site, and there was no contract that prohibits that, he is free to use it. He can design his own web site, powered on the back end by his own implementation of the algorithm, and you have no legitimate complaint. However, instead of designing his own site, he just copies the design of your site. The whole site is basically a clone of yours. He even advertises his site by referring to yours by name, and proclaiming their equivalence. That's the problem here. Teller figured out a clever trick. That corresponds to the algorithm. Then he came up with a theatrical performance to present an illusion built upon the trick. That's like the web site. The other guy figured out the trick. He's then free to come up with an original theatrical performance built around some original illusion using that trick. What he appears to have done, though, is simply take Teller's theatrical performance.