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Isn't this more of a false advertising with risk of personal injury issue? Why should they be able to call it Full Self Driving if it doesn't drive itself, ful

Isn't this more of a false advertising with risk of personal injury issue? Why should they be able to call it Full Self Driving if it doesn't drive itself, fully. Even if they do have fine print that says "The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous." Seems egregious to name something with a precise feature description and then completely contradict that description in fine print.

ceejayoz 3y ago
False advertising is indeed what California is going after them for.
- kjksf 3y ago
  Not in the legal sense. Per ChatGPT the government agency that can sue you for false advertising is FTC, not DMV. One of the DMV claims is that Tesla misrepresents FSD capability but they didn't sue Tesla for false advertising. Furthermore, it's not really a lawsuit. Per https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/08/tesla_california_autopilot/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/08/tesla_california_auto... DMV "filed with the Golden State' Office of Administrative Hearings (OAH) and allege that the company violated its manufacturer and dealer Occupational Licenses." They want Tesla to respond that notice and "If Tesla chooses to respond, there will be discovery and response filings, leading to a hearing before an OAH administrative law judge. And if Tesla dislikes the result, it has the option to file an appeal in Superior Court." Tesla wants (among other things) a jury trial, not a decision by OAH administrative law judge.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    > Per ChatGPT the government agency that can sue you for false advertising is FTC, not DMV. I would strongly recommend you not go to ChatGPT for legal advice in the future. (Ask it about this; "No, you should not use ChatGPT or any other AI language model as a source for legal advice. While ChatGPT can generate responses based on patterns it learned from diverse data, it does not have the ability to provide accurate, up-to-date legal information. Legal matters are complex and often require a deep understanding of specific jurisdictional laws, recent legal developments, and the unique details of each case. Relying on AI for legal advice can lead to misunderstandings, misinterpretations, and potential legal consequences.") The complaint is readily available for you to review: https://regmedia.co.uk/2022/08/08/tesla_dealer_complaint.pdf https://regmedia.co.uk/2022/08/08/tesla_dealer_complaint.pdf > Respondent made untrue or misleading statements in advertisements in violation of Vehicle Code § 11713(a). https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/vehicle-code/veh-sect-11713/ https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/vehicle-code/veh-sect-11713/ > A holder of a license issued under this article shall not do any of the following: (a) Make or disseminate, or cause to be made or disseminated, before the public in this state, in a newspaper or other publication, or an advertising device, or by public outcry or proclamation, or in any other manner or means whatever, a statement that is untrue or misleading and that is known, or that by the exercise of reasonable care should be known, to be untrue or misleading; or to so make or disseminate, or cause to be so disseminated, a statement as part of a plan or scheme with the intent not to sell a vehicle or service so advertised at the price stated therein, or as so advertised. The basic legal concept that permits both the Feds and individual states to separately create and enforce rules on advertising is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism.
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    > Per ChatGPT the government agency that can sue you for false advertising is FTC, not DMV. ... This is the first time I've ever seen someone actually doing this. I would... be cautious of relying on stochastic parrots for legal advice.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      Oh, it's not the first time. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/06/lawyers-have-real-bad-day-in-court-after-citing-fake-cases-made-up-by-chatgpt/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/06/lawyers-have-rea... > A federal judge tossed a lawsuit and issued a $5,000 fine to the plaintiff's lawyers after they used ChatGPT to research court filings that cited six fake cases invented by the artificial intelligence tool made by OpenAI.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
I have been driven fully to an airport with FSD beta. Do people think this doesn't exist? Tesla does say it is level 2, but it seems if they add a few 9s of reliability it gets much higher quite quickly.
brandonagr2 3y ago
It does drive itself, while a human driver supervises and is responsible for the safe operation of the vehicle. When in autopilot does the car control the steering and acceleration? How can you describe that as anything other than the car driving itself? Seems egregious to intentionally misunderstand / redefine words to arrive at a predetermined conclusion, just because you wrongly understand the term FSD to mean no humans, doesn't make that reality. Would you have no objection if Tesla had just called it DrivePilot or BlueCruise instead?
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > Would you have no objection if Tesla had just called it DrivePilot or BlueCruise instead? As long as they don’t do stuff like this to market it: “The beginning of the video shows a disclaimer which says the person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons.” https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-evidence-that-tesla-musk-knew-about-autopilot-defect-2023-11-22/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-evidence-that-tesl... Or this: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/789022017311735808 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/789022017311735808 “When you want your car to return, tap Summon on your phone. It will eventually find you even if you are on the other side of the country”

ceejayoz 3y ago

False advertising is indeed what California is going after them for.

kjksf 3y ago
Not in the legal sense. Per ChatGPT the government agency that can sue you for false advertising is FTC, not DMV. One of the DMV claims is that Tesla misrepresents FSD capability but they didn't sue Tesla for false advertising. Furthermore, it's not really a lawsuit. Per https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/08/tesla_california_autopilot/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/08/tesla_california_auto... DMV "filed with the Golden State' Office of Administrative Hearings (OAH) and allege that the company violated its manufacturer and dealer Occupational Licenses." They want Tesla to respond that notice and "If Tesla chooses to respond, there will be discovery and response filings, leading to a hearing before an OAH administrative law judge. And if Tesla dislikes the result, it has the option to file an appeal in Superior Court." Tesla wants (among other things) a jury trial, not a decision by OAH administrative law judge.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > Per ChatGPT the government agency that can sue you for false advertising is FTC, not DMV. I would strongly recommend you not go to ChatGPT for legal advice in the future. (Ask it about this; "No, you should not use ChatGPT or any other AI language model as a source for legal advice. While ChatGPT can generate responses based on patterns it learned from diverse data, it does not have the ability to provide accurate, up-to-date legal information. Legal matters are complex and often require a deep understanding of specific jurisdictional laws, recent legal developments, and the unique details of each case. Relying on AI for legal advice can lead to misunderstandings, misinterpretations, and potential legal consequences.") The complaint is readily available for you to review: https://regmedia.co.uk/2022/08/08/tesla_dealer_complaint.pdf https://regmedia.co.uk/2022/08/08/tesla_dealer_complaint.pdf > Respondent made untrue or misleading statements in advertisements in violation of Vehicle Code § 11713(a). https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/vehicle-code/veh-sect-11713/ https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/vehicle-code/veh-sect-11713/ > A holder of a license issued under this article shall not do any of the following: (a) Make or disseminate, or cause to be made or disseminated, before the public in this state, in a newspaper or other publication, or an advertising device, or by public outcry or proclamation, or in any other manner or means whatever, a statement that is untrue or misleading and that is known, or that by the exercise of reasonable care should be known, to be untrue or misleading; or to so make or disseminate, or cause to be so disseminated, a statement as part of a plan or scheme with the intent not to sell a vehicle or service so advertised at the price stated therein, or as so advertised. The basic legal concept that permits both the Feds and individual states to separately create and enforce rules on advertising is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  > Per ChatGPT the government agency that can sue you for false advertising is FTC, not DMV. ... This is the first time I've ever seen someone actually doing this. I would... be cautious of relying on stochastic parrots for legal advice.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Oh, it's not the first time. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/06/lawyers-have-real-bad-day-in-court-after-citing-fake-cases-made-up-by-chatgpt/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/06/lawyers-have-rea... > A federal judge tossed a lawsuit and issued a $5,000 fine to the plaintiff's lawyers after they used ChatGPT to research court filings that cited six fake cases invented by the artificial intelligence tool made by OpenAI.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

I have been driven fully to an airport with FSD beta. Do people think this doesn't exist? Tesla does say it is level 2, but it seems if they add a few 9s of reliability it gets much higher quite quickly.

brandonagr2 3y ago

It does drive itself, while a human driver supervises and is responsible for the safe operation of the vehicle. When in autopilot does the car control the steering and acceleration? How can you describe that as anything other than the car driving itself? Seems egregious to intentionally misunderstand / redefine words to arrive at a predetermined conclusion, just because you wrongly understand the term FSD to mean no humans, doesn't make that reality. Would you have no objection if Tesla had just called it DrivePilot or BlueCruise instead?

ceejayoz 3y ago
> Would you have no objection if Tesla had just called it DrivePilot or BlueCruise instead? As long as they don’t do stuff like this to market it: “The beginning of the video shows a disclaimer which says the person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons.” https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-evidence-that-tesla-musk-knew-about-autopilot-defect-2023-11-22/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-finds-evidence-that-tesl... Or this: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/789022017311735808 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/789022017311735808 “When you want your car to return, tap Summon on your phone. It will eventually find you even if you are on the other side of the country”