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From that page: "For additional privacy and security, 14 data categories — including Health and passwords in iCloud Keychain — are end-to-end encrypted. Apple d

by mike_d 3y ago

From that page: "For additional privacy and security, 14 data categories — including Health and passwords in iCloud Keychain — are end-to-end encrypted. Apple doesn't have the encryption keys for these categories, and we can't help you recover this data if you lose access to your account." The page goes on to list iMessage as always E2E. Other types of data like Calendar are only encrypted in transit and at rest so they can do server side processing. You may also find their legal explanation a bit clearer: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/messages/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/messages/ Specifically: "We designed iMessage to use end-to-end encryption, so there’s no way for Apple to decrypt the content of your conversations when they are in transit between devices. Attachments you send over iMessage (such as photos or videos) are encrypted so that no one but the sender and receiver(s) can access them."

modeless 3y ago
> The page goes on to list iMessage as always E2E It does no such thing. I'm sorry, Apple's wording is precise but quite confusing. The link again is: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651 You are likely being misled by Apple's confusing naming. In the "Data categories and encryption" table, "Messages in iCloud" is listed as always end-to-end encrypted, with a footnote. However this is not telling you that all iMessage messages are always stored end-to-end encrypted. In fact "Messages in iCloud" refers to an optional feature of iMessage. The table is telling you that if you enable the "Messages in iCloud" feature, your messages are end-to-end encrypted. But wait, remember that footnote! Follow the footnote reference to find out that in fact, as I said, the end-to-end encryption is broken by iCloud backup unless the optional ADP is enabled. This line of the table is extremely misleading to say the least. But what if you don't enable the "Messages in iCloud" feature? Then your iCloud backup simply includes your messages, which again are not end-to-end encrypted unless you enable the optional ADP. That's covered under the "iCloud Backup (including device and Messages backup)" line in the "Data categories and encryption" table. Note that in this table "In transit & on server" means "not end-to-end". The other page you link states that messages are "encrypted" in iCloud backups; it does not state that they are end-to-end encrypted in iCloud backups, in contrast to the following sentence which specifically calls out end-to-end encryption. The page seems designed to mislead, but it is technically not incorrect because it does not specifically claim end-to-end encryption of iCloud backups. The iCloud documentation I linked, on the other hand, is confusing but definitive and unambiguous if carefully read.
- mike_d 3y ago
  Ah, I see where you are getting confused. Yes the Messages in iCloud encryption keys are escrowed with Apple in some cases. The keys are stored inside an HSM that requires a secret known by the user and not Apple. The underlying process is documented in this webpage and the linked PDF https://support.apple.com/guide/security/escrow-security-for-icloud-keychain-sec3e341e75d/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/escrow-security-for...
  - modeless 3y ago
    I know it is confusing to follow which specific Apple products each description applies to. That documentation you linked is specific to iCloud Keychain. It does not describe what Messages in iCloud does. When iCloud Backup is enabled without ADP the Messages in iCloud key is stored outside iCloud Keychain and not end-to-end encrypted. Don't believe me? Believe Apple: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/security-of-icloud-backup-sec2c21e7f49/1/web/1 https://support.apple.com/guide/security/security-of-icloud-... > When iCloud Backup is turned on, the backup includes a copy of the Messages in iCloud encryption key so Apple can help the user recover their messages even if they have lost access to iCloud Keychain and their trusted devices.
    - mike_d 3y ago
      From that page: "By default, the iCloud Backup service key is securely backed up to iCloud Hardware Security Modules in Apple data centers, and is part of the available-after-authentication data category." It is handled in the same way as the keychain, but the page I linked has a better technical description. Let me put this issue to rest with a pair of quotes from Apple's guide for law enforcement: Q: Can Apple intercept customers’ communications pursuant to a Wiretap Order? A: Apple can intercept customers’ email communications, upon receipt of a valid Wiretap Order. Apple cannot intercept customers’ iMessage or FaceTime communications as these communications are end-to-end encrypted. and Apple does not receive or retain encryption keys for customer’s end-to-end encrypted data. Remember this is in response to law enforcement (and by proxy the courts) and they don't get to rely on technicalities or word games about backups to not comply with a warrant. It just isn't possible.

by mike_d 3y ago

modeless 3y ago

> The page goes on to list iMessage as always E2E It does no such thing. I'm sorry, Apple's wording is precise but quite confusing. The link again is: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651 You are likely being misled by Apple's confusing naming. In the "Data categories and encryption" table, "Messages in iCloud" is listed as always end-to-end encrypted, with a footnote. However this is not telling you that all iMessage messages are always stored end-to-end encrypted. In fact "Messages in iCloud" refers to an optional feature of iMessage. The table is telling you that if you enable the "Messages in iCloud" feature, your messages are end-to-end encrypted. But wait, remember that footnote! Follow the footnote reference to find out that in fact, as I said, the end-to-end encryption is broken by iCloud backup unless the optional ADP is enabled. This line of the table is extremely misleading to say the least. But what if you don't enable the "Messages in iCloud" feature? Then your iCloud backup simply includes your messages, which again are not end-to-end encrypted unless you enable the optional ADP. That's covered under the "iCloud Backup (including device and Messages backup)" line in the "Data categories and encryption" table. Note that in this table "In transit & on server" means "not end-to-end". The other page you link states that messages are "encrypted" in iCloud backups; it does not state that they are end-to-end encrypted in iCloud backups, in contrast to the following sentence which specifically calls out end-to-end encryption. The page seems designed to mislead, but it is technically not incorrect because it does not specifically claim end-to-end encryption of iCloud backups. The iCloud documentation I linked, on the other hand, is confusing but definitive and unambiguous if carefully read.

mike_d 3y ago
Ah, I see where you are getting confused. Yes the Messages in iCloud encryption keys are escrowed with Apple in some cases. The keys are stored inside an HSM that requires a secret known by the user and not Apple. The underlying process is documented in this webpage and the linked PDF https://support.apple.com/guide/security/escrow-security-for-icloud-keychain-sec3e341e75d/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/escrow-security-for...
- modeless 3y ago
  I know it is confusing to follow which specific Apple products each description applies to. That documentation you linked is specific to iCloud Keychain. It does not describe what Messages in iCloud does. When iCloud Backup is enabled without ADP the Messages in iCloud key is stored outside iCloud Keychain and not end-to-end encrypted. Don't believe me? Believe Apple: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/security-of-icloud-backup-sec2c21e7f49/1/web/1 https://support.apple.com/guide/security/security-of-icloud-... > When iCloud Backup is turned on, the backup includes a copy of the Messages in iCloud encryption key so Apple can help the user recover their messages even if they have lost access to iCloud Keychain and their trusted devices.
  - mike_d 3y ago
    From that page: "By default, the iCloud Backup service key is securely backed up to iCloud Hardware Security Modules in Apple data centers, and is part of the available-after-authentication data category." It is handled in the same way as the keychain, but the page I linked has a better technical description. Let me put this issue to rest with a pair of quotes from Apple's guide for law enforcement: Q: Can Apple intercept customers’ communications pursuant to a Wiretap Order? A: Apple can intercept customers’ email communications, upon receipt of a valid Wiretap Order. Apple cannot intercept customers’ iMessage or FaceTime communications as these communications are end-to-end encrypted. and Apple does not receive or retain encryption keys for customer’s end-to-end encrypted data. Remember this is in response to law enforcement (and by proxy the courts) and they don't get to rely on technicalities or word games about backups to not comply with a warrant. It just isn't possible.