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Let's imagine it is an engineering problem; how do they solve it? Give a disclaimer that "your communications are not encrypted" and turn the bubbles maybe ligh

by judge2020 3y ago

Let's imagine it is an engineering problem; how do they solve it? Give a disclaimer that "your communications are not encrypted" and turn the bubbles maybe light green?

bushbaba 3y ago
Wouldn’t entire thread need to be light green. Wouldn’t android users not see the Tapbacks/threads in same visual UX. It makes sense to turn it off entirely than to deliver a subpar and confusing UX
- rezonant 3y ago
  Actually both tapbacks (for a long time) and reply threads (since the latest iOS release) are both supported in MMS group conversations. The iPhone will send a tapback as an SMS message such as "Liked 'contents of message that was liked'" and other iPhones convert that back into a tapback. Google Messages also does this (and in fact did it before Apple did). iOS does not convert Google Messages style tapback messages into tapbacks though, so iPhone users only have half of the solution. As for reply threads, when it's used it creates a lot of confusion for non iPhone users and it's not clear how Google Messages and other texting clients can fix it post-hoc. I'm not even sure how iOS reconstitutes it-- perhaps Apple sends some message metadata on the side via iMessage?
  - bongobingo1 3y ago
    I hate all of this. How depressing. As always, the actual people in the system wear all the cost.
    - account42 3y ago
      Yes but ultimately those people are also responsible for chosing those systems and for electing politicans that allow this kind of behavior.
      - bongobingo1 3y ago
        Bizarre take. I had no call in electing any politician that has any influence over Apple or Google, nor do I really have the choice to pick beyond the one of the two systems. Neither does the rest of 95% of the world.
      - rezonant 3y ago
        Well I didn't choose any of this iMessage nonsense, but I'm still paying for it.
  - tiltowait 3y ago
    iOS does attempt to properly inline Android tapbacks and has done so since IIRC iOS 16. It's not perfect, though: if the tapback isn't one Messages recognizes, then you get it in message form, e.g. ":smile: to 'Have a nice day!'" (only with the actual emoji). It also fails all tapbacks if it's an image, presumably since it can't know which image is reacted to. Hopefully the experience is improved when they implement RCS, though I'm not sure if tapbacks are part of the spec.
    - rezonant 3y ago
      I just tested it in a group MMS with an iPhone user running iOS 17, and alas no, this is incorrect. Neither thumbs up (like) nor heart (love) apply as tapbacks when the tapback originates from android. Unless there's something I'm missing, only Android users get cross compatible tapbacks.
hornban 3y ago
> how do they solve it? Release iMessage on Android. If there is a concern that it wouldn't be secure with Google controlling it, then they could put it out on F-Droid, which would simultaneously prove that they're serious and also undermine Google's own efforts at controlling the culture war.
- mthoms 3y ago
  But then they wouldn’t be able to claim that alternative app stores are bad for consumers.
  - antiframe 3y ago
    The presupposition was "let's assume it was an engineering problem, how would they solve it". Obviously we can revert it back to a business choice rather than engineering problem rather trivially.
- stouset 3y ago
  Part of the iMessage security model is that devices are attested. Without this, the service as-is becomes widely open to spam and other forms of abuse. Yes, there are other solutions to the spam problem. They are nowhere near as effective as what I’ve witnessed as an iMessage user so far. I regularly get spam chats on WhatsApp and Signal.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    As we know, the devices are not attested, because beeper works. They're also not attested on old iPhone versions which are valid iMessage parties. Some new devices being bound to the hardware key doesn't change that. Spam doesn't matter here - same app is used for SMS, which gets spam, so there's nothing new here. But if Apple wanted to, they'd just sort out a deal that allows hardware signing of iMessage accounts on Android. That's not an unfixable problem.
    - klausa 3y ago
      >As we know, the devices are not attested, because beeper works. This argument doesn't make any sense. They managed to figure out a way to create valid attestation data via old Apple binaries. Just because a security (well. "security") measure was circumvented, doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all.
nelox 3y ago
Apple would prefer you buy an iPhone.
- barrkel 3y ago
  That's not an engineering solution.
  - theodric 3y ago
    They're social engineering your circle of contacts to pressure you to buy an iPhone
- wolpoli 3y ago
  This kind of attitude (eventually) gets the government involved.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    As it did in Europe.
    - pjerem 3y ago
      Ironically, iMessage is not that common in Europe. WhatsApp and Facebook messenger won the game here (but they are also targeted by EU). Anyway, I hope for Apple that they have numbers proving that this bullshit strategy really makes them sell more iPhones because it makes them look really stupid. In any sane society, nobody cares about the color of a bubble, in fact, as an iPhone user, I blame more Apple for the lack of basic SMS features than of the bubble color. I’d be a stupid friend if I pressured my friends to get a blue bubble, that’s insane.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Let's imagine it is an engineering problem; how do they solve it? Give a disclaimer that "your communications are not encrypted" and turn the bubbles maybe light green?

bushbaba 3y ago

Wouldn’t entire thread need to be light green. Wouldn’t android users not see the Tapbacks/threads in same visual UX. It makes sense to turn it off entirely than to deliver a subpar and confusing UX

rezonant 3y ago
Actually both tapbacks (for a long time) and reply threads (since the latest iOS release) are both supported in MMS group conversations. The iPhone will send a tapback as an SMS message such as "Liked 'contents of message that was liked'" and other iPhones convert that back into a tapback. Google Messages also does this (and in fact did it before Apple did). iOS does not convert Google Messages style tapback messages into tapbacks though, so iPhone users only have half of the solution. As for reply threads, when it's used it creates a lot of confusion for non iPhone users and it's not clear how Google Messages and other texting clients can fix it post-hoc. I'm not even sure how iOS reconstitutes it-- perhaps Apple sends some message metadata on the side via iMessage?
- bongobingo1 3y ago
  I hate all of this. How depressing. As always, the actual people in the system wear all the cost.
  - account42 3y ago
    Yes but ultimately those people are also responsible for chosing those systems and for electing politicans that allow this kind of behavior.
    - bongobingo1 3y ago
      Bizarre take. I had no call in electing any politician that has any influence over Apple or Google, nor do I really have the choice to pick beyond the one of the two systems. Neither does the rest of 95% of the world.
    - rezonant 3y ago
      Well I didn't choose any of this iMessage nonsense, but I'm still paying for it.
- tiltowait 3y ago
  iOS does attempt to properly inline Android tapbacks and has done so since IIRC iOS 16. It's not perfect, though: if the tapback isn't one Messages recognizes, then you get it in message form, e.g. ":smile: to 'Have a nice day!'" (only with the actual emoji). It also fails all tapbacks if it's an image, presumably since it can't know which image is reacted to. Hopefully the experience is improved when they implement RCS, though I'm not sure if tapbacks are part of the spec.
  - rezonant 3y ago
    I just tested it in a group MMS with an iPhone user running iOS 17, and alas no, this is incorrect. Neither thumbs up (like) nor heart (love) apply as tapbacks when the tapback originates from android. Unless there's something I'm missing, only Android users get cross compatible tapbacks.

hornban 3y ago

> how do they solve it? Release iMessage on Android. If there is a concern that it wouldn't be secure with Google controlling it, then they could put it out on F-Droid, which would simultaneously prove that they're serious and also undermine Google's own efforts at controlling the culture war.

mthoms 3y ago
But then they wouldn’t be able to claim that alternative app stores are bad for consumers.
- antiframe 3y ago
  The presupposition was "let's assume it was an engineering problem, how would they solve it". Obviously we can revert it back to a business choice rather than engineering problem rather trivially.
stouset 3y ago
Part of the iMessage security model is that devices are attested. Without this, the service as-is becomes widely open to spam and other forms of abuse. Yes, there are other solutions to the spam problem. They are nowhere near as effective as what I’ve witnessed as an iMessage user so far. I regularly get spam chats on WhatsApp and Signal.
- viraptor 3y ago
  As we know, the devices are not attested, because beeper works. They're also not attested on old iPhone versions which are valid iMessage parties. Some new devices being bound to the hardware key doesn't change that. Spam doesn't matter here - same app is used for SMS, which gets spam, so there's nothing new here. But if Apple wanted to, they'd just sort out a deal that allows hardware signing of iMessage accounts on Android. That's not an unfixable problem.
  - klausa 3y ago
    >As we know, the devices are not attested, because beeper works. This argument doesn't make any sense. They managed to figure out a way to create valid attestation data via old Apple binaries. Just because a security (well. "security") measure was circumvented, doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all.

nelox 3y ago

Apple would prefer you buy an iPhone.

barrkel 3y ago
That's not an engineering solution.
- theodric 3y ago
  They're social engineering your circle of contacts to pressure you to buy an iPhone
wolpoli 3y ago
This kind of attitude (eventually) gets the government involved.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  As it did in Europe.
  - pjerem 3y ago
    Ironically, iMessage is not that common in Europe. WhatsApp and Facebook messenger won the game here (but they are also targeted by EU). Anyway, I hope for Apple that they have numbers proving that this bullshit strategy really makes them sell more iPhones because it makes them look really stupid. In any sane society, nobody cares about the color of a bubble, in fact, as an iPhone user, I blame more Apple for the lack of basic SMS features than of the bubble color. I’d be a stupid friend if I pressured my friends to get a blue bubble, that’s insane.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]