3 ms·

For some definitions of wealth, surely. By most quality of life metrics, the average (Western) European is doing as well or better than the average American.

bequanna 3y ago
Can you cite some specifics? I’ve travelled to quite a few places in Europe and coming from the American Midwest, we are beating much of Europe in most/all QoL metrics by a mile. Much larger and nicer homes, larger properties, mincer automobiles, more variety of all consumer goods, higher incomes, more wealth and social mobility to name a few and I live in “flyover” country.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  Which QoL metrics?
- Alcatros552 3y ago
  Take life expectancy https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/world-life-expectancy-map https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/world-life-expectancy-ma... or take how we treat the elderly and you will know the difference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhlIiMgDxm4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhlIiMgDxm4
- missedthecue 3y ago
  Based on conversations I've had, it seems most Americans who think that way took a vacation to a ritzy area of Barcelona, Nice, or Florence, and and deduced that 100% of Europeans, must live like that.
  - bequanna 3y ago
    That could be. Very interested to hear specific ways the Europeans are beating us and where exactly they are hiding all that prosperity!
- boudin 3y ago
  It's a matter of opinion and what people want, but from American i crossed path with who settled in western Europe: accessible health-care, better infrastructures, holidays and work-life balance are some of the things that are recurring.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I meant by both proxy statistics (e.g. life expectancy) and self-reported statistics (e.g. QoL metrics). I've linked both of those in comments in an adjacent subthread. I, like many Americans, would take a strong safety net, sustainable urban development and a smaller home over the US's mess of a safety net, socially devastating suburban sprawl, and a 4000 sqft McMansion.
- tomjakubowski 3y ago
  Suicide rates are a good place to start. Overall the EU's suicide rate is 10.25/100k vs 14.04/100k in the US, and it looks like many places in the Midwest are doing worse than the US average. [1] US suicide rates https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/suicide-mortality/suicide.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/suicide-mortality/... [2] EU suicide rates https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/edn-20230908-3 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/e...
dividendpayee 3y ago
The article suggests heavily that, the way things are going, that's not going to be the case in the future. Right now, Europeans are still living off past prosperity, but if they don't build a real technology industry and innovate, then future Europeans will be much worse off.
- meheleventyone 3y ago
  It doesn’t really succeed in making that case though, there’s a lot of invective but few facts. If you used the same criteria as the author for the US outside of SV how does it compare? And as for AI DeepMind is HQ’d in Europe!
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    > Today’s Europeans are not yet poor — they are still living off the prosperity created by prior generations, and that enables their passive consumption Supported by something also said by others [7] https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/02/26/europe-is-the-free-rider-continent https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/02/26/europe-is-the-fr... The underlying issue seems to be an incompatibility between egalitarianism and inspiration to individual exceptionalism. Why be great in Europe, if the rewards to being great elsewhere are better, and you can afford to relocate? To benefit from European social benefits? If you're that successful, you've far exceeded that standard from personal wealth! Consequently, you're stuck in a weird middle ground with misaligned incentives papering over a fundamental incompatibility.
    - meheleventyone 3y ago
      I’m aware the opinion exists.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  > Right now, Europeans are still living off past prosperity, but if they don't build a real technology industry and innovate, then future Europeans will be much worse off. As an American, I've heard some variant of this for literally my entire life. Europe is technologically conservative in ways that the US is not. It's unclear that this has, is having, or will have any impact on the actual material wellbeing of the people who live there. Compare life expectancy[1], or just about any self-reported QoL metric[2] (where the US doesn't perform badly, just not better!). [1]: https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/data/europe-developed-countries/life-expectancy/ https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/data/euro... [2]: https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/ https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/
Racing0461 3y ago
> most quality of life metrics This is what we refer to as "europoor". Sure they have taxpayer funded "healthcare", council "housing", public "transportation" but it's not really what i would want for myself. Those things only exist because the middle class in europe is foced to give up a lifestyle of freedom/autonomy to average it out so the folks below them can get (1 + 0)/2. It won't stand on its own otherwise. Thankfully the decision isn't being made for me by making those things prohibitively expensive to force me to live in urbania.
- bequanna 3y ago
  Also, not paying your fair share for defense seems to have its advantages.
- atoav 3y ago
  So you'd rather live in a villa next to a slum than in a decent house next to a decent house?
  - Racing0461 3y ago
    That's not the tradeoff. It's a decent house out in the suburbs vs some dense urban inner city apartment or something attached to other people with people of varying crazyness for lack of a better word living around you. And if you do want to own a house, it's going to be crazy expensive and cars you can't drive unless it's tuesday and you have an odd numbered license plate. The people living in the villas are the actual wealthy who gets to bypass the system (ie billionaire flying a private jet to a climate change conference to try to get the government to ban cars to force you to use a packed train). I'm advocating for freedom/autonomy for the middle class instead of grouping everyone who isn't a billionaire together. I'm just saying we add one more partition.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
marcusverus 3y ago
Americans have significantly higher disposable income[0] and household net worth[1], and less debt[2]. By what QOL metrics is the average Western European doing better than the average American? [0] https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm [1] https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-... [2] https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm

bequanna 3y ago

Can you cite some specifics? I’ve travelled to quite a few places in Europe and coming from the American Midwest, we are beating much of Europe in most/all QoL metrics by a mile. Much larger and nicer homes, larger properties, mincer automobiles, more variety of all consumer goods, higher incomes, more wealth and social mobility to name a few and I live in “flyover” country.

hotpotamus 3y ago
Which QoL metrics?
Alcatros552 3y ago
Take life expectancy https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/world-life-expectancy-map https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/world-life-expectancy-ma... or take how we treat the elderly and you will know the difference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhlIiMgDxm4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhlIiMgDxm4
missedthecue 3y ago
Based on conversations I've had, it seems most Americans who think that way took a vacation to a ritzy area of Barcelona, Nice, or Florence, and and deduced that 100% of Europeans, must live like that.
- bequanna 3y ago
  That could be. Very interested to hear specific ways the Europeans are beating us and where exactly they are hiding all that prosperity!
boudin 3y ago
It's a matter of opinion and what people want, but from American i crossed path with who settled in western Europe: accessible health-care, better infrastructures, holidays and work-life balance are some of the things that are recurring.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
woodruffw 3y ago
I meant by both proxy statistics (e.g. life expectancy) and self-reported statistics (e.g. QoL metrics). I've linked both of those in comments in an adjacent subthread. I, like many Americans, would take a strong safety net, sustainable urban development and a smaller home over the US's mess of a safety net, socially devastating suburban sprawl, and a 4000 sqft McMansion.
tomjakubowski 3y ago
Suicide rates are a good place to start. Overall the EU's suicide rate is 10.25/100k vs 14.04/100k in the US, and it looks like many places in the Midwest are doing worse than the US average. [1] US suicide rates https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/suicide-mortality/suicide.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/suicide-mortality/... [2] EU suicide rates https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/edn-20230908-3 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/e...

dividendpayee 3y ago

The article suggests heavily that, the way things are going, that's not going to be the case in the future. Right now, Europeans are still living off past prosperity, but if they don't build a real technology industry and innovate, then future Europeans will be much worse off.

meheleventyone 3y ago
It doesn’t really succeed in making that case though, there’s a lot of invective but few facts. If you used the same criteria as the author for the US outside of SV how does it compare? And as for AI DeepMind is HQ’d in Europe!
- ethbr1 3y ago
  > Today’s Europeans are not yet poor — they are still living off the prosperity created by prior generations, and that enables their passive consumption Supported by something also said by others [7] https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/02/26/europe-is-the-free-rider-continent https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/02/26/europe-is-the-fr... The underlying issue seems to be an incompatibility between egalitarianism and inspiration to individual exceptionalism. Why be great in Europe, if the rewards to being great elsewhere are better, and you can afford to relocate? To benefit from European social benefits? If you're that successful, you've far exceeded that standard from personal wealth! Consequently, you're stuck in a weird middle ground with misaligned incentives papering over a fundamental incompatibility.
  - meheleventyone 3y ago
    I’m aware the opinion exists.
woodruffw 3y ago
> Right now, Europeans are still living off past prosperity, but if they don't build a real technology industry and innovate, then future Europeans will be much worse off. As an American, I've heard some variant of this for literally my entire life. Europe is technologically conservative in ways that the US is not. It's unclear that this has, is having, or will have any impact on the actual material wellbeing of the people who live there. Compare life expectancy[1], or just about any self-reported QoL metric[2] (where the US doesn't perform badly, just not better!). [1]: https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/data/europe-developed-countries/life-expectancy/ https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/data/euro... [2]: https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/ https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/

Racing0461 3y ago

> most quality of life metrics This is what we refer to as "europoor". Sure they have taxpayer funded "healthcare", council "housing", public "transportation" but it's not really what i would want for myself. Those things only exist because the middle class in europe is foced to give up a lifestyle of freedom/autonomy to average it out so the folks below them can get (1 + 0)/2. It won't stand on its own otherwise. Thankfully the decision isn't being made for me by making those things prohibitively expensive to force me to live in urbania.

bequanna 3y ago
Also, not paying your fair share for defense seems to have its advantages.
atoav 3y ago
So you'd rather live in a villa next to a slum than in a decent house next to a decent house?
- Racing0461 3y ago
  That's not the tradeoff. It's a decent house out in the suburbs vs some dense urban inner city apartment or something attached to other people with people of varying crazyness for lack of a better word living around you. And if you do want to own a house, it's going to be crazy expensive and cars you can't drive unless it's tuesday and you have an odd numbered license plate. The people living in the villas are the actual wealthy who gets to bypass the system (ie billionaire flying a private jet to a climate change conference to try to get the government to ban cars to force you to use a packed train). I'm advocating for freedom/autonomy for the middle class instead of grouping everyone who isn't a billionaire together. I'm just saying we add one more partition.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

marcusverus 3y ago

Americans have significantly higher disposable income[0] and household net worth[1], and less debt[2]. By what QOL metrics is the average Western European doing better than the average American? [0] https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm [1] https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-... [2] https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm