7 ms·

Natl Sheriffs' Assoc. letter against federal civil asset forfeiture reform [pdf]

98 points by sbuttgereit 3y ago

sokoloff 3y ago
Road pirates association argues in favor of continued road piracy, on the basis that it sometimes plunders money from drug cartels.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mrdoop 3y ago
  [dead]
JohnFen 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
mullingitover 3y ago
One of Trump's first acts in office was to resurrect the practice[1]. He joked with sheriffs about destroying the career of a Texas politician who was trying to rein it in[2]. [1] https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/civil-forfeiture-trump-resurrects-an-ugly-practice-for-no-reason-14237541 https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/civil-forfeiture-... [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/07/513976112/trump-jokes-of-state-senator-well-destroy-his-career https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/07/513976112...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
model-15-DAV 3y ago
[flagged]
wharvle 3y ago
If they’re this upset, HR 1525 must be pretty good. Background on the bizarre and kinda scary institution that is the office of “sheriff”, in the US: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gt5I3V5hWkU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gt5I3V5hWkU “Some More News — Maybe We Don’t Need Sheriffs” Potentially NSFW language. Also: long video warning. TL;DW they’re (at least in many states) not just another type of police force basically the same as the others, but a distinct kind of thing with a lot of autonomy and not a lot of checks on what they get up to. Unsurprisingly, they have a tendency toward corruption. And their lobbying groups are weird and creepy. EDIT anyone wanna clue me in why this way-tamer-than-many-posts post is upsetting folks so much, so I can avoid doing it in the future? Does everyone else just already know this stuff about sheriffs (I didn’t find out until I was well into my 30s…)?
woodruffw 3y ago
This rings more than a little hollow given that the ongoing justification for local inaction against "drug cartels" is that it's solely the Federal government's responsibility. In other words: even if civil asset forfeiture wasn't blatantly unconstitutional, why give such a power to people who've demonstrated every intent to do nothing of (ostensible) value with it?
- Deprecate9151 3y ago
  This letter is particularly concerning when you consider there are individuals represented by this org who also believe in the Constitutional Sheriff theory. They want to be lords of a fife, not law enforcement.
  - sbuttgereit 3y ago
    But there are other law enforcement agencies that are fairly conventional also actively working to keep the status quo. https://www.poam.net/poam-members/letter-regarding-hr-1525/ https://www.poam.net/poam-members/letter-regarding-hr-1525/
    - Deprecate9151 3y ago
      It's definitely endemic, I was just commenting on a particular subset of extremism.
- u32480932048 3y ago
  "Because reasons" Signed, The Treasurer of the Sheriffs' Association
everybodyknows 3y ago
Dated July. What's happened since then?
TimSchumann 3y ago
For those of you who don't know, civil asset forfeiture is the practice of the government, or law enforcement agencies in the United States, confiscating your property if said property could be the proceeds of any illegal activities.[1] Only a 'preponderance of evidence' is required, a much lower burden of proof than in criminal trials. This essentially means 'more likely than not.' [2] Also, unlike you the individual, your property is not 'innocent until proven guilty' as it has no rights. You must prove that you deserve your property back. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... [2] https://versustexas.com/blog/beyond-reasonable-doubt/ https://versustexas.com/blog/beyond-reasonable-doubt/
- sonicanatidae 3y ago
  Theft.. it's the process of the government employees literally stealing from citizens. If people want their money back, it's off to the labyrinthine constructs meant entirely, to waste someone's time and money and dissuade them from pursuing it. While I realize you're simply defining the term, I believe, in a more accurate summation.
- stevespang 3y ago
  [dead]
thefaux 3y ago
I feel like if they were serious about seizing assets that are connected to a crime they'd start raiding Sotheby's art auctions. That'd be fun to watch play out in court.
javajosh 3y ago
I don't get who's for this. The Trumpian "don't tread on me" populists who mistrust government don't want it, do they? The left wing "everything is about race and gender" don't want it, do they? Like, honestly, is anyone other than LEOs themselves arguing for civil asset forfeiture?
- sbuttgereit 3y ago
  The "The Trumpian 'don't tread on me' populists", for the most part, have no trouble with this. They don't mistrust government at all... as long as it's their conception of government, supporting their priorities. The "don't tread on me" is just a convenient phrase to trot out when things aren't going their way. Think about it, these are often the same people that tout their "tough on crime" stances and support for civil asset forfeiture is a way of showing support for making law enforcement's job easier. For some, an arrest is as good as guilt. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/jeff-sessions-and-the-resurgence-of-civil-asset-forfeiture https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/jeff-sessions-and-t...
  - artificialLimbs 3y ago
    Hello. Trumpian don’t tread on me populist here. Civil asset forfeiture should get the ban hammer.
    - sbuttgereit 3y ago
      If only you could convince the people you'd like to see in power to agree. There's much more that could be said about how willing those you apparently support are willing to put the machinery of government power to work treading on everyone that doesn't tow their line, but that discussion is unlikely to move anyone here.
      - artificialLimbs 3y ago
        >> If only you could convince the people you'd like to see in power to agree. And how about you, with the people you'd like to see in power?
sbuttgereit 3y ago
A little context. This is a letter concerning a bill pending in the U.S. House of Representatives which would provide some reforms to how civil asset forfeiture is conducted in the U.S. https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/1525?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%22hr1525%22%7D&s=1&r=1 https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/1525... Unsurprisingly, for law enforcement, any hinderance of their ability to engage in such forfeitures does make their jobs harder (individual rights can add pesky additional hoops to jump through) and, perhaps more importantly, threatens a revenue stream (discussed in the letter as "equitable sharing"... in essence the cut of the take local agencies get from a forfeiture).
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  No, hindrance to their ability to engage in such forfeitures makes it harder for them to take stuff. That's not what their jobs actually are, though.
u32480932048 3y ago
A more direct way to limit the influence of cartels may be to start cutting funding for agencies like the DEA who are supposed to be stopping - not facilitating - the transfer of drugs into the US. These are the same state-sponsored criminals who obtain evidence unlawfully then lie about it under oath as part of their evidence laundering schemes. https://narco.news/articles/private-network https://narco.news/articles/private-network

98 points by sbuttgereit 3y ago

Road pirates association argues in favor of continued road piracy, on the basis that it sometimes plunders money from drug cartels.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mrdoop 3y ago
[dead]

JohnFen 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

mullingitover 3y ago

One of Trump's first acts in office was to resurrect the practice[1]. He joked with sheriffs about destroying the career of a Texas politician who was trying to rein it in[2]. [1] https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/civil-forfeiture-trump-resurrects-an-ugly-practice-for-no-reason-14237541 https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/civil-forfeiture-... [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/07/513976112/trump-jokes-of-state-senator-well-destroy-his-career https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/07/513976112...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

model-15-DAV 3y ago

[flagged]

wharvle 3y ago

If they’re this upset, HR 1525 must be pretty good. Background on the bizarre and kinda scary institution that is the office of “sheriff”, in the US: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gt5I3V5hWkU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gt5I3V5hWkU “Some More News — Maybe We Don’t Need Sheriffs” Potentially NSFW language. Also: long video warning. TL;DW they’re (at least in many states) not just another type of police force basically the same as the others, but a distinct kind of thing with a lot of autonomy and not a lot of checks on what they get up to. Unsurprisingly, they have a tendency toward corruption. And their lobbying groups are weird and creepy. EDIT anyone wanna clue me in why this way-tamer-than-many-posts post is upsetting folks so much, so I can avoid doing it in the future? Does everyone else just already know this stuff about sheriffs (I didn’t find out until I was well into my 30s…)?

woodruffw 3y ago

This rings more than a little hollow given that the ongoing justification for local inaction against "drug cartels" is that it's solely the Federal government's responsibility. In other words: even if civil asset forfeiture wasn't blatantly unconstitutional, why give such a power to people who've demonstrated every intent to do nothing of (ostensible) value with it?

Deprecate9151 3y ago
This letter is particularly concerning when you consider there are individuals represented by this org who also believe in the Constitutional Sheriff theory. They want to be lords of a fife, not law enforcement.
- sbuttgereit 3y ago
  But there are other law enforcement agencies that are fairly conventional also actively working to keep the status quo. https://www.poam.net/poam-members/letter-regarding-hr-1525/ https://www.poam.net/poam-members/letter-regarding-hr-1525/
  - Deprecate9151 3y ago
    It's definitely endemic, I was just commenting on a particular subset of extremism.
u32480932048 3y ago
"Because reasons" Signed, The Treasurer of the Sheriffs' Association

everybodyknows 3y ago

Dated July. What's happened since then?

TimSchumann 3y ago

For those of you who don't know, civil asset forfeiture is the practice of the government, or law enforcement agencies in the United States, confiscating your property if said property could be the proceeds of any illegal activities.[1] Only a 'preponderance of evidence' is required, a much lower burden of proof than in criminal trials. This essentially means 'more likely than not.' [2] Also, unlike you the individual, your property is not 'innocent until proven guilty' as it has no rights. You must prove that you deserve your property back. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... [2] https://versustexas.com/blog/beyond-reasonable-doubt/ https://versustexas.com/blog/beyond-reasonable-doubt/

sonicanatidae 3y ago
Theft.. it's the process of the government employees literally stealing from citizens. If people want their money back, it's off to the labyrinthine constructs meant entirely, to waste someone's time and money and dissuade them from pursuing it. While I realize you're simply defining the term, I believe, in a more accurate summation.
stevespang 3y ago
[dead]

thefaux 3y ago

I feel like if they were serious about seizing assets that are connected to a crime they'd start raiding Sotheby's art auctions. That'd be fun to watch play out in court.

javajosh 3y ago

I don't get who's for this. The Trumpian "don't tread on me" populists who mistrust government don't want it, do they? The left wing "everything is about race and gender" don't want it, do they? Like, honestly, is anyone other than LEOs themselves arguing for civil asset forfeiture?

sbuttgereit 3y ago
The "The Trumpian 'don't tread on me' populists", for the most part, have no trouble with this. They don't mistrust government at all... as long as it's their conception of government, supporting their priorities. The "don't tread on me" is just a convenient phrase to trot out when things aren't going their way. Think about it, these are often the same people that tout their "tough on crime" stances and support for civil asset forfeiture is a way of showing support for making law enforcement's job easier. For some, an arrest is as good as guilt. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/jeff-sessions-and-the-resurgence-of-civil-asset-forfeiture https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/jeff-sessions-and-t...
- artificialLimbs 3y ago
  Hello. Trumpian don’t tread on me populist here. Civil asset forfeiture should get the ban hammer.
  - sbuttgereit 3y ago
    If only you could convince the people you'd like to see in power to agree. There's much more that could be said about how willing those you apparently support are willing to put the machinery of government power to work treading on everyone that doesn't tow their line, but that discussion is unlikely to move anyone here.
    - artificialLimbs 3y ago
      >> If only you could convince the people you'd like to see in power to agree. And how about you, with the people you'd like to see in power?

sbuttgereit 3y ago

A little context. This is a letter concerning a bill pending in the U.S. House of Representatives which would provide some reforms to how civil asset forfeiture is conducted in the U.S. https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/1525?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%22hr1525%22%7D&s=1&r=1 https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/1525... Unsurprisingly, for law enforcement, any hinderance of their ability to engage in such forfeitures does make their jobs harder (individual rights can add pesky additional hoops to jump through) and, perhaps more importantly, threatens a revenue stream (discussed in the letter as "equitable sharing"... in essence the cut of the take local agencies get from a forfeiture).

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
No, hindrance to their ability to engage in such forfeitures makes it harder for them to take stuff. That's not what their jobs actually are, though.

u32480932048 3y ago

A more direct way to limit the influence of cartels may be to start cutting funding for agencies like the DEA who are supposed to be stopping - not facilitating - the transfer of drugs into the US. These are the same state-sponsored criminals who obtain evidence unlawfully then lie about it under oath as part of their evidence laundering schemes. https://narco.news/articles/private-network https://narco.news/articles/private-network