4 ms·

$64 billion in fraud, $4 billion compensation, ... "total recoveries to 91% of their fraud losses." What math is this? I got 6.6%.

wmf 3y ago
They defined losses as the money originally invested, not the fake profits. So people have gotten back almost the money they put in decades ago; they've still lost massively compared to a scenario where they invested that money in something other than Madoff.
- ksjskskskkk 3y ago
  [flagged]
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
  So, if they were robbing Peter to pay Paul, how is there still 90%+ available for payouts? That seems shockingly frugal of Bernie and Co.
  - ksherlock 3y ago
    The Sam Bankmans of the world gamble away their stolen money on shitcoins but the Madoffs of the world buy real estate, yachts, and government bonds. His real estate purchases had decent appreciation over the years -- a hamptons house (bought in 1980 for $250,000, sold for $10 million), a NYC penthouse apartment (bought in 1984, sold for $8 million). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_of_funds_from_the_Madoff_investment_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_of_funds_from_the_Mad...
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      FTX investors are likely to see a similar return, and might even turn a profit in recovery. Some FTX investors are looking to spin up a speculative investment coin to trade FTX legal liabilities.
      - Arrath 3y ago
        I can't even tell what is satire any more.
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        https://cointelegraph.com/news/crypto-debt-investors-buy-250m-ftx-claims https://cointelegraph.com/news/crypto-debt-investors-buy-250... >In line with growing demand, the price of some FTX claims has been soaring this year. Some low-ranking FTX claims have jumped 191%, surging from $0.12 in early 2023 to about $0.35 recorded in recent weeks, the report said, citing data from the crypto debt broker Claims Market.
      - ipython 3y ago
        I understand that the return is mostly due to the appreciation of FTX's early investment in Anthropic (which prosecutors believed was made with customers' funds).
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        bitcoin is also up
  - potatopatch 3y ago
    As per the article, clawbacks. Even "Pauls" that Bernie didn't talk into reinvesting were threatened with clawbacks of their fake earnings.
    - SnorkelTan 3y ago
      Not a lawyer but I suspect unknowingly profiting from a criminal conspiracy doesn’t leave the receivers of the profit with much choice. Not a whole lot of threatening required.

wmf 3y ago

They defined losses as the money originally invested, not the fake profits. So people have gotten back almost the money they put in decades ago; they've still lost massively compared to a scenario where they invested that money in something other than Madoff.

ksjskskskkk 3y ago
[flagged]
0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
So, if they were robbing Peter to pay Paul, how is there still 90%+ available for payouts? That seems shockingly frugal of Bernie and Co.
- ksherlock 3y ago
  The Sam Bankmans of the world gamble away their stolen money on shitcoins but the Madoffs of the world buy real estate, yachts, and government bonds. His real estate purchases had decent appreciation over the years -- a hamptons house (bought in 1980 for $250,000, sold for $10 million), a NYC penthouse apartment (bought in 1984, sold for $8 million). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_of_funds_from_the_Madoff_investment_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_of_funds_from_the_Mad...
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    FTX investors are likely to see a similar return, and might even turn a profit in recovery. Some FTX investors are looking to spin up a speculative investment coin to trade FTX legal liabilities.
    - Arrath 3y ago
      I can't even tell what is satire any more.
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        https://cointelegraph.com/news/crypto-debt-investors-buy-250m-ftx-claims https://cointelegraph.com/news/crypto-debt-investors-buy-250... >In line with growing demand, the price of some FTX claims has been soaring this year. Some low-ranking FTX claims have jumped 191%, surging from $0.12 in early 2023 to about $0.35 recorded in recent weeks, the report said, citing data from the crypto debt broker Claims Market.
    - ipython 3y ago
      I understand that the return is mostly due to the appreciation of FTX's early investment in Anthropic (which prosecutors believed was made with customers' funds).
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        bitcoin is also up
- potatopatch 3y ago
  As per the article, clawbacks. Even "Pauls" that Bernie didn't talk into reinvesting were threatened with clawbacks of their fake earnings.
  - SnorkelTan 3y ago
    Not a lawyer but I suspect unknowingly profiting from a criminal conspiracy doesn’t leave the receivers of the profit with much choice. Not a whole lot of threatening required.