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From everything I've read on the matter, I believe that the UX nightmare when you include a non-apple user is an intentional design choice, rather than an engin
by hornban 3y ago
From everything I've read on the matter, I believe that the UX nightmare when you include a non-apple user is an intentional design choice, rather than an engineering problem that hasn't been solved. They want the experience to suffer when somebody outside of the ecosystem is involved so as to create social pressure for the outsider to change.
The ironic part of all of this is that while the EU may be forcing Apple into supporting RCS to fix the situation, Google has resisted every effort to extend RCS to their own Voice platform.
It's really a shame that Microsoft gave up on mobile, because they really could be a real middle ground for the rest of us that just want interoperability.
- judge2020 3y agoLet's imagine it is an engineering problem; how do they solve it? Give a disclaimer that "your communications are not encrypted" and turn the bubbles maybe light green?
- bushbaba 3y agoWouldn’t entire thread need to be light green. Wouldn’t android users not see the Tapbacks/threads in same visual UX. It makes sense to turn it off entirely than to deliver a subpar and confusing UX
- rezonant 3y agoActually both tapbacks (for a long time) and reply threads (since the latest iOS release) are both supported in MMS group conversations. The iPhone will send a tapback as an SMS message such as "Liked 'contents of message that was liked'" and other iPhones convert that back into a tapback. Google Messages also does this (and in fact did it before Apple did). iOS does not convert Google Messages style tapback messages into tapbacks though, so iPhone users only have half of the solution. As for reply threads, when it's used it creates a lot of confusion for non iPhone users and it's not clear how Google Messages and other texting clients can fix it post-hoc. I'm not even sure how iOS reconstitutes it-- perhaps Apple sends some message metadata on the side via iMessage?
- bongobingo1 3y agoI hate all of this. How depressing. As always, the actual people in the system wear all the cost.
- account42 3y agoYes but ultimately those people are also responsible for chosing those systems and for electing politicans that allow this kind of behavior.
- bongobingo1 3y agoBizarre take. I had no call in electing any politician that has any influence over Apple or Google, nor do I really have the choice to pick beyond the one of the two systems. Neither does the rest of 95% of the world.
- rezonant 3y agoWell I didn't choose any of this iMessage nonsense, but I'm still paying for it.
- tiltowait 3y agoiOS does attempt to properly inline Android tapbacks and has done so since IIRC iOS 16. It's not perfect, though: if the tapback isn't one Messages recognizes, then you get it in message form, e.g. ":smile: to 'Have a nice day!'" (only with the actual emoji). It also fails all tapbacks if it's an image, presumably since it can't know which image is reacted to. Hopefully the experience is improved when they implement RCS, though I'm not sure if tapbacks are part of the spec.
- rezonant 3y agoI just tested it in a group MMS with an iPhone user running iOS 17, and alas no, this is incorrect. Neither thumbs up (like) nor heart (love) apply as tapbacks when the tapback originates from android. Unless there's something I'm missing, only Android users get cross compatible tapbacks.
- hornban 3y ago> how do they solve it? Release iMessage on Android. If there is a concern that it wouldn't be secure with Google controlling it, then they could put it out on F-Droid, which would simultaneously prove that they're serious and also undermine Google's own efforts at controlling the culture war.
- mthoms 3y agoBut then they wouldn’t be able to claim that alternative app stores are bad for consumers.
- antiframe 3y agoThe presupposition was "let's assume it was an engineering problem, how would they solve it". Obviously we can revert it back to a business choice rather than engineering problem rather trivially.
- stouset 3y agoPart of the iMessage security model is that devices are attested. Without this, the service as-is becomes widely open to spam and other forms of abuse. Yes, there are other solutions to the spam problem. They are nowhere near as effective as what I’ve witnessed as an iMessage user so far. I regularly get spam chats on WhatsApp and Signal.
- viraptor 3y agoAs we know, the devices are not attested, because beeper works. They're also not attested on old iPhone versions which are valid iMessage parties. Some new devices being bound to the hardware key doesn't change that. Spam doesn't matter here - same app is used for SMS, which gets spam, so there's nothing new here. But if Apple wanted to, they'd just sort out a deal that allows hardware signing of iMessage accounts on Android. That's not an unfixable problem.
- klausa 3y ago>As we know, the devices are not attested, because beeper works. This argument doesn't make any sense. They managed to figure out a way to create valid attestation data via old Apple binaries. Just because a security (well. "security") measure was circumvented, doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all.
- nelox 3y agoApple would prefer you buy an iPhone.
- barrkel 3y agoThat's not an engineering solution.
- theodric 3y agoThey're social engineering your circle of contacts to pressure you to buy an iPhone
- wolpoli 3y agoThis kind of attitude (eventually) gets the government involved.
- wkat4242 3y agoAs it did in Europe.
- pjerem 3y agoIronically, iMessage is not that common in Europe. WhatsApp and Facebook messenger won the game here (but they are also targeted by EU). Anyway, I hope for Apple that they have numbers proving that this bullshit strategy really makes them sell more iPhones because it makes them look really stupid. In any sane society, nobody cares about the color of a bubble, in fact, as an iPhone user, I blame more Apple for the lack of basic SMS features than of the bubble color. I’d be a stupid friend if I pressured my friends to get a blue bubble, that’s insane.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- kergonath 3y ago> From everything I've read on the matter, I believe that the UX nightmare when you include a non-apple user is an intentional design choice, rather than an engineering problem that hasn't been solved. They want the experience to suffer when somebody outside of the ecosystem is involved so as to create social pressure for the outsider to change. This makes no sense. What’s the point in degrading the UX without telling the user 1) why the UX is degraded, 2) what they can do about it? If the point is to steer people towards iDevices, why is it degrading the UX specifically for these people? Honestly, this sounds like a knee jerk reaction where you are convinced that Apple is bad and are looking for confirmation instead of trying to actually think rationally. > It's really a shame that Microsoft gave up on mobile, because they really could be a real middle ground for the rest of us that just want interoperability. They could not. They were neither here nor there in terms of platform use and applications availability and poured tons of money into it for no result. Nothing in their behaviour at the time showed that they even understood the problem they were trying to solve.
- shados 3y ago> What’s the point in degrading the UX without telling the user 1) why the UX is degraded, 2) what they can do about it? I Because 1) everyone in the Apple world knows, and 2) they want the answer to "What can be done about it" to be "Shame your peers into switching to an iPhone". And it works. A little too well, especially with younger folks.
- JohnFen 3y agoI have never once felt any shame for using Android, nor have I felt any pressure to switch to Apple. If anyone in my social circle tried that sort of nonsense, I'd never stop ridiculing them about it. But I'm also the opposite of a younger folk.
- shados 3y agoYeah, I don't have issues either. But in the US, in gen z and younger social circles, the "green bubble stigma" is a very real thing.
- wharvle 3y ago> From everything I've read on the matter, I believe that the UX nightmare when you include a non-apple user is an intentional design choice, rather than an engineering problem that hasn't been solved. I'd be sure this was why, if Google hadn't once tried to get me to use a combo SMS/MMS + some-other-Google-messaging-service app on my phone (by replacing the normal SMS app on OS upgrade—this was on a Nexus phone) that was so broken and janky it was unusable. Like, it is for-sure the case that a rich, huge, "smart" company can fuck this up a lot worse than Apple has. iMessage is easily good enough that I haven't had to go find some alternative SMS app, at least.
- Zak 3y agoI don't remember Hangouts being broken, but Google didn't keep their attempt to onboard people by making it the default SMS client going very long. To me, that seems like a major error on their part, though I think I'm glad Google didn't succeed in popularizing a proprietary unencrypted messaging service.
- nerdix 3y agoIt would have been encrypted by now (at least for hangout to hangout chats) had it hung around. And at least it was cross platform but overall I agree that mobile messaging should be standardized and open. So while the Google messaging strategy has been an abject failure overall, they did eventually trip over themselves and stumble onto the right path.
- Zak 3y agoGoogle's implementation of RCS isn't very standardized or open. So far, I believe it's only available with Google's client and Google's servers.
- lxgr 3y ago> iMessage is easily good enough that I haven't had to go find some alternative SMS app (Almost) nobody here is challenging that it is, under the condition that you communicate exclusively with iPhone users. MMS group chats are an absolute dumpster fire from an UX point of view. In some countries, a single MMS costs about half an USD as well (per recipient)!
- TheKarateKid 3y ago> The ironic part of all of this is that while the EU may be forcing Apple into supporting RCS to fix the situation, Google has resisted every effort to extend RCS to their own Voice platform. Google Voice has been in maintenance mode for years. It's unlikely that Google resisted adding RCS, but rather there's been no effort to actually do it.
- marwis 3y agoThat might be true but they're also dragging their feet with RCS in Google Fi (still only partial support - have to disable Fi cloud sync).
- lallysingh 3y agoShh don't mention Voice. Google obviously forgot that they still had it turned on. If they remember it'll get killed.
- MobiusHorizons 3y agoGoogle voice has a paid version via Google Workspace, so I doubt the service will go away. But I wouldn't bet on the free version staying free, or not losing features forever.
- jetpackjoe 3y agoGoogle domains was baked into GCP and had "enterprise" users. A service having a paid version doesn't mean anything.
- la_oveja 3y agohehe https://killedbygoogle.com/ https://killedbygoogle.com/
- perryizgr8 3y ago> It's really a shame that Microsoft gave up on mobile, Nokia's Lumia phones were so good at one time. The hardware was top notch (including cameras). The software was smoother than android and more intuitive than iphone. It was just a solid platform. I would buy one in a blink if it was available today in the high end segment. I'd not even be bothered about google's anti competitive behavior wrt youtube and other apps. Massive shame we lost Nokia and windows phone both due to the de facto duopoly that has taken hold in the market.
- ruszki 3y agoI used Windows phone only once, while I tried to find where I can remove SIM card’s PIN on my father’s phone, because he couldn’t find it. It took us a solid half hour, because I never imagined that it’s an application setting. It wasn’t terrible, but it had its problems.
- go_prodev 3y agoWhatsApp is that middle ground in some parts of the world. Upon moving to Europe we discovered that WhatsApp is the preferred way to connect with friends, employees, social groups and schools. It was actually the driving factor in me conceding and setting up a FB account.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]