4 ms·

Opinion of a criminal: I don't think there are too many criminal laws at the State level. That is definitely not the reason for high incarceration rates. The gu

Opinion of a criminal: I don't think there are too many criminal laws at the State level. That is definitely not the reason for high incarceration rates. The guys who are in prison didn't randomly trip over a law they didn't know existed. 99% of the laws are the same as they've been since pre-history: don't hurt someone, don't steal etc. Sentencing to prison is probably the key problem. Criminals need help. Outright punishment just hardens them. From my experience the bulk of crime has its origin in mental illnesses which are not being treated. The medical system in the USA almost certainly is the cause of this.

pdonis 3y ago
What about non-violent drug possession? AFAIK that all by itself accounts for a significant number of incarcerated people. Laws criminalizing that are a product of the war on drugs, not embodying something in statute that's been a common law crime throughout human history.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  My understanding that this is largely a thing of the past. Simple possession doesn't result in time, although dealing can
  - pdonis 3y ago
    Non-violent dealing (meaning possession for the purpose of sale instead of use) would still be non-violent possession. It is a valid question what fraction of dealing (as opposed to possession for personal use) is actually non-violent. But even the violence is largely a product of the war on drugs, just as the corresponding violence surrounding illegal alcohol dealing during Prohibition was a product of the war on alcohol. Take away the prohibition and the violence went away.
    - graphe 3y ago
      How many of those are without a weapon? Is intent to distribute fentanyl a non violent possession? If so could you ever make a case it’s non violent dealing? If you don’t see it as non violent dealing, a store advertising date rape drugs should be allowed to sell all their legal products.
      - pdonis 3y ago
        > How many of those are without a weapon? Whatever the current fraction is, it's in a world with a war on drugs, so it can't tell you anything useful about what a world without a war on drugs would be like. > Is intent to distribute fentanyl a non violent possession? As long as the distribution is done by voluntary transactions, sure. > a store advertising date rape drugs should be allowed to sell all their legal products. Date rape is not the only use for fentanyl. One might as well say that liquor stores should be closed down because liquor can be used for date rape. The premise of the war on drugs is that if we make drugs illegal, people will stop using them, or at least use will be drastically curtailed. We already knew that was false because Prohibition did not stop people from using alcoholic beverages, or drastically curtail their use; it just created a lucrative black market in alcohol, plus an incentive to violence for the people who ran that market--since they were criminals already, adding violence to the mix wasn't a big step. The war on drugs has worked out the same way. The only way to drastically reduce drug use is for people to stop wanting to use drugs. Unfortunately nobody has a really good way to do that. But we know that criminalizing their use and creating a lucrative and violent black market for them does not work.
        graphe 3y ago
        Singapore indicates strict prohibition and punishing laws can and do work. The problem wasn’t that prohibition didn’t work, it was the lack of enforcement. I don’t have any philosophy towards the idea of drugs. I don’t think the world would be worst off all fentanyl sellers were all dead. I don’t see a point to say we should treat heroin like weed and cocaine like Xanax.
        pdonis 3y ago
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      The Counterpoint is you have countries with lower incarceration rates like Singapore with the death penalty and other harsh penalties for drug dealing. I personally think the use of drugs is something better regulated by social norms then the law. However, this changes if the law socializes the cost of drug addiction. That is to say, if I'm forced to pay for food, shelter, and Healthcare for addicts, then they also lose the freedom of choice.
  - qingcharles 3y ago
    It's often used as an aggravating factor in another crime. If you're caught with a gun and some drugs then it usually makes the gun crime radically more severe.

pdonis 3y ago

What about non-violent drug possession? AFAIK that all by itself accounts for a significant number of incarcerated people. Laws criminalizing that are a product of the war on drugs, not embodying something in statute that's been a common law crime throughout human history.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
My understanding that this is largely a thing of the past. Simple possession doesn't result in time, although dealing can
- pdonis 3y ago
  Non-violent dealing (meaning possession for the purpose of sale instead of use) would still be non-violent possession. It is a valid question what fraction of dealing (as opposed to possession for personal use) is actually non-violent. But even the violence is largely a product of the war on drugs, just as the corresponding violence surrounding illegal alcohol dealing during Prohibition was a product of the war on alcohol. Take away the prohibition and the violence went away.
  - graphe 3y ago
    How many of those are without a weapon? Is intent to distribute fentanyl a non violent possession? If so could you ever make a case it’s non violent dealing? If you don’t see it as non violent dealing, a store advertising date rape drugs should be allowed to sell all their legal products.
    - pdonis 3y ago
      > How many of those are without a weapon? Whatever the current fraction is, it's in a world with a war on drugs, so it can't tell you anything useful about what a world without a war on drugs would be like. > Is intent to distribute fentanyl a non violent possession? As long as the distribution is done by voluntary transactions, sure. > a store advertising date rape drugs should be allowed to sell all their legal products. Date rape is not the only use for fentanyl. One might as well say that liquor stores should be closed down because liquor can be used for date rape. The premise of the war on drugs is that if we make drugs illegal, people will stop using them, or at least use will be drastically curtailed. We already knew that was false because Prohibition did not stop people from using alcoholic beverages, or drastically curtail their use; it just created a lucrative black market in alcohol, plus an incentive to violence for the people who ran that market--since they were criminals already, adding violence to the mix wasn't a big step. The war on drugs has worked out the same way. The only way to drastically reduce drug use is for people to stop wanting to use drugs. Unfortunately nobody has a really good way to do that. But we know that criminalizing their use and creating a lucrative and violent black market for them does not work.
      - graphe 3y ago
        Singapore indicates strict prohibition and punishing laws can and do work. The problem wasn’t that prohibition didn’t work, it was the lack of enforcement. I don’t have any philosophy towards the idea of drugs. I don’t think the world would be worst off all fentanyl sellers were all dead. I don’t see a point to say we should treat heroin like weed and cocaine like Xanax.
        pdonis 3y ago
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    The Counterpoint is you have countries with lower incarceration rates like Singapore with the death penalty and other harsh penalties for drug dealing. I personally think the use of drugs is something better regulated by social norms then the law. However, this changes if the law socializes the cost of drug addiction. That is to say, if I'm forced to pay for food, shelter, and Healthcare for addicts, then they also lose the freedom of choice.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  It's often used as an aggravating factor in another crime. If you're caught with a gun and some drugs then it usually makes the gun crime radically more severe.