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I’m a former Android fanatic turned iPhone user. I still own Android devices, but my primary device is an iPhone. I haven’t had something excite me as much as t

I’m a former Android fanatic turned iPhone user. I still own Android devices, but my primary device is an iPhone. I haven’t had something excite me as much as this Beeper Mini situation in years—I love that they’re doing this. One of the things that got me to switch to the iPhone a few years ago was the fact that it seemed Apple was actually doing a lot of the right things when it came to privacy and security. Obviously, I was still pretty skeptical of them, but compared to Google, Apple’s track record seemed a bit more trustworthy. The way Apple tries to lock you in though while stifling competition is extremely disappointing. They’re on the wrong side of history.

kulahan 3y ago
>They're on the wrong side of history. Say that to their market cap. Seems a lot of people appreciate what comes with that drawback. Revealed preferences can be a sonuvabitch.
- freedomben 3y ago
  yep. And GP themself is an example of why this works. Their practices sold an iphone and converted a fanatic Android user!
- smoldesu 3y ago
  I will say that to their market cap. Such an insane capitalization on digital sales can only be achieved by extinguishing the alternatives your platform can host. It's a regressive featureset that can (apparently) only be reversed through legislative demands a-la Digital Market Act. Many, many companies have had huge market caps while funding anti-humanist or exploitative processes. Given Apple's scale you almost have to assume that they're abusing something lucrative.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    > Such an insane capitalization on digital sales... Apple's market cap is built on something like 80% hardware sales by revenue.
- joshmanders 3y ago
  Yep, this is an unpopular HN opinion, but I actually like Apple's walled garden. It's safe, it's friendly and I don't have to worry.
  - vore 3y ago
    This is in fact the most popular HN opinion that always comes up on every Apple thread.
shepherdjerred 3y ago
SMS is spammy enough -- I don't want to see spam via iMessage. These third-party clients make spam much more viable. I love open standards, open source, whatever, but I want some things in my life to just work well without caring about the details. My phone is one of those things.
ceejayoz 3y ago
> it seemed Apple was actually doing the a lot of the right things when it came to privacy and security Isn't this one of them? A security hole existed that permitted Beeper to pretend to be your Apple device. In this case, it was being used for non-nefarious purposes, but that doesn't mean everyone would. Apple's fixing that hole seems in-line with your desired "privacy and security".
- jay-barronville 3y ago
  > Isn't this one of them? I don’t believe so. Beeper Mini uses Apple’s protocols the same way the native iMessage uses it; they didn’t exploit a security hole (unless you classify the device faking part as a security hole—I don’t). They maintain the E2EE flow.
  - averageRoyalty 3y ago
    This is incorrect. They're using a legacy, less secure protocol - not in the sense of encryption, but in the sense of the need to generate auth tokens per user.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    The protocol's implementation is intended to verify you're connecting a device Apple built, with stuff like secure enclave and end-to-end encryption as known quantities. With Beeper, you have to give your Apple ID to a third-party app, which they then proxy through a server of some kind (https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/11/beeper-mini-is-back-in-operation-after-apples-attempt-to-shut-it-down/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/11/beeper-mini-is-back-in-ope...; "signing in with our Apple ID generated an Apple prompt that noted our ID was being used to sign in with a device “near Los Angeles, CA” (where we are not located.)") I don't see how you could describe that as anything other than a security hole.
    - jay-barronville 3y ago
      > With Beeper, you have to give your Apple ID to a third-party app, which they then proxy through a server of some kind (https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/11/beeper-mini-is-back-in-ope https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/11/beeper-mini-is-back-in-ope... "signing in with our Apple ID generated an Apple prompt that noted our ID was being used to sign in with a device “near Los Angeles, CA” (where we are not located.)") I think they have another primary product of the same name that operates this way, but Beeper Mini never sends your credentials off anywhere other than Apple’s servers [0][1]. [0]: https://blog.beeper.com/p/how-beeper-mini-works https://blog.beeper.com/p/how-beeper-mini-works [1]: https://github.com/JJTech0130/pypush https://github.com/JJTech0130/pypush
endisneigh 3y ago
> The way Apple tries to lock you in though while stifling competition is extremely disappointing. They’re on the wrong side of history. Fascinating that you say this when you literally switched to iPhone yourself.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  How is it fascinating? Apple exerts pressure on customers to buy their products, and then further pressures to keep them integrated with Apple's ecosystem. Here, a customer gave in to the first pressure and is disappointed by the artificial friction Apple uses to upsell their customers. So... are we shocked that iPhone customers don't de-facto agree with everything Apple does? Or the fact that OP would be willing to criticize something they paid for and supposedly identify with? It's really not fascinating at all. It reads like a perfectly level-headed and candid criticism of an ecosystem by someone who isn't invested in the success of one particular company. It's almost too lucid for HN.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  [flagged]
misnome 3y ago
> while stifling competition How? Lock-in, sure - but unless you do a lot of market gerrymandering (which Epic tried but got laughed out of court), how does anything apple do stop people competing? It’s not e.g. paying google large sums of money to avoid making its own competitor. Being big isn’t itself anticompetitive. And on this exact topic - there is a whole ecosystem of messaging apps that exists. They just have to build their own userbase.
colordrops 3y ago
If you want privacy a de-googled android phone is far better than apple.
- jay-barronville 3y ago
  I believe this to be true, but to be honest, back when I made the switch, I was also considering the convenience factor.
- knd775 3y ago
  Yes, but a truly de-googled Android phone is a huge pain. Many apps rely on play services, and the open source alternatives still don't fully work.
  - colordrops 3y ago
    I've been using LineageOS with microg for over 2 years without much pain, other than initial setup.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

kulahan 3y ago

>They're on the wrong side of history. Say that to their market cap. Seems a lot of people appreciate what comes with that drawback. Revealed preferences can be a sonuvabitch.

freedomben 3y ago
yep. And GP themself is an example of why this works. Their practices sold an iphone and converted a fanatic Android user!
smoldesu 3y ago
I will say that to their market cap. Such an insane capitalization on digital sales can only be achieved by extinguishing the alternatives your platform can host. It's a regressive featureset that can (apparently) only be reversed through legislative demands a-la Digital Market Act. Many, many companies have had huge market caps while funding anti-humanist or exploitative processes. Given Apple's scale you almost have to assume that they're abusing something lucrative.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > Such an insane capitalization on digital sales... Apple's market cap is built on something like 80% hardware sales by revenue.
joshmanders 3y ago
Yep, this is an unpopular HN opinion, but I actually like Apple's walled garden. It's safe, it's friendly and I don't have to worry.
- vore 3y ago
  This is in fact the most popular HN opinion that always comes up on every Apple thread.

shepherdjerred 3y ago

SMS is spammy enough -- I don't want to see spam via iMessage. These third-party clients make spam much more viable. I love open standards, open source, whatever, but I want some things in my life to just work well without caring about the details. My phone is one of those things.

ceejayoz 3y ago

> it seemed Apple was actually doing the a lot of the right things when it came to privacy and security Isn't this one of them? A security hole existed that permitted Beeper to pretend to be your Apple device. In this case, it was being used for non-nefarious purposes, but that doesn't mean everyone would. Apple's fixing that hole seems in-line with your desired "privacy and security".

jay-barronville 3y ago
> Isn't this one of them? I don’t believe so. Beeper Mini uses Apple’s protocols the same way the native iMessage uses it; they didn’t exploit a security hole (unless you classify the device faking part as a security hole—I don’t). They maintain the E2EE flow.
- averageRoyalty 3y ago
  This is incorrect. They're using a legacy, less secure protocol - not in the sense of encryption, but in the sense of the need to generate auth tokens per user.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  The protocol's implementation is intended to verify you're connecting a device Apple built, with stuff like secure enclave and end-to-end encryption as known quantities. With Beeper, you have to give your Apple ID to a third-party app, which they then proxy through a server of some kind (https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/11/beeper-mini-is-back-in-operation-after-apples-attempt-to-shut-it-down/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/11/beeper-mini-is-back-in-ope...; "signing in with our Apple ID generated an Apple prompt that noted our ID was being used to sign in with a device “near Los Angeles, CA” (where we are not located.)") I don't see how you could describe that as anything other than a security hole.
  - jay-barronville 3y ago
    > With Beeper, you have to give your Apple ID to a third-party app, which they then proxy through a server of some kind (https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/11/beeper-mini-is-back-in-ope https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/11/beeper-mini-is-back-in-ope... "signing in with our Apple ID generated an Apple prompt that noted our ID was being used to sign in with a device “near Los Angeles, CA” (where we are not located.)") I think they have another primary product of the same name that operates this way, but Beeper Mini never sends your credentials off anywhere other than Apple’s servers [0][1]. [0]: https://blog.beeper.com/p/how-beeper-mini-works https://blog.beeper.com/p/how-beeper-mini-works [1]: https://github.com/JJTech0130/pypush https://github.com/JJTech0130/pypush

endisneigh 3y ago

> The way Apple tries to lock you in though while stifling competition is extremely disappointing. They’re on the wrong side of history. Fascinating that you say this when you literally switched to iPhone yourself.

smoldesu 3y ago
How is it fascinating? Apple exerts pressure on customers to buy their products, and then further pressures to keep them integrated with Apple's ecosystem. Here, a customer gave in to the first pressure and is disappointed by the artificial friction Apple uses to upsell their customers. So... are we shocked that iPhone customers don't de-facto agree with everything Apple does? Or the fact that OP would be willing to criticize something they paid for and supposedly identify with? It's really not fascinating at all. It reads like a perfectly level-headed and candid criticism of an ecosystem by someone who isn't invested in the success of one particular company. It's almost too lucid for HN.
meepmorp 3y ago
[flagged]

misnome 3y ago

> while stifling competition How? Lock-in, sure - but unless you do a lot of market gerrymandering (which Epic tried but got laughed out of court), how does anything apple do stop people competing? It’s not e.g. paying google large sums of money to avoid making its own competitor. Being big isn’t itself anticompetitive. And on this exact topic - there is a whole ecosystem of messaging apps that exists. They just have to build their own userbase.

colordrops 3y ago

If you want privacy a de-googled android phone is far better than apple.

jay-barronville 3y ago
I believe this to be true, but to be honest, back when I made the switch, I was also considering the convenience factor.
knd775 3y ago
Yes, but a truly de-googled Android phone is a huge pain. Many apps rely on play services, and the open source alternatives still don't fully work.
- colordrops 3y ago
  I've been using LineageOS with microg for over 2 years without much pain, other than initial setup.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]