5 ms·

It seems clear to me that Beeper is playing a game of chicken with Apple. If Apple continues to cut off Beeper's access, it makes an antitrust argument stronger

by radlad 3y ago

It seems clear to me that Beeper is playing a game of chicken with Apple. If Apple continues to cut off Beeper's access, it makes an antitrust argument stronger (a la https://9to5mac.com/2023/12/06/eus-imessage-antitrust-investigation-looks-set-to-rule-in-apples-favor/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/12/06/eus-imessage-antitrust-invest...)

solardev 3y ago
In the event Apple loses in Europe, I wonder what would happen. Would they really open up iMessage worldwide? Just in Europe? Shut it down there altogether since WhatsApp is already so popular there anyway, and their US market is bigger? And what does this do for Beeper, anyway? If they open it up, wouldn't Google and Samsung just integrate it into their first party messaging clients? It seems as precarious a position as Trillian was back in the day: only usable if the source protocols don't shut them out, but only valuable if those protocols don't open up completely. The moment either happens, they die.
- Longhanks 3y ago
  Whatever legislation they face, they will implement it in the most hostile way towards non-Apple services/users/companies. See how they implement off-App Store payments in the Netherlands and/or South Korea. Apple is not giving up on iMessage. And, given the legislation becomes to cumbersome to deal with, they will withdraw from countries - they threatened to withdraw iMessage from the UK already. The EU is already becoming a second-class market for technology companies (see Meta's Threads, and many more will follow).
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Yep, also the EU has already dropped their iMessage thing
fooey 3y ago
The Beeper vs Apple battle is already getting the attention of US legislators https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/10/senator-warren-calls-out-apple-for-shutting-down-beepers-imessage-to-android-solution/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/10/senator-warren-calls-out-a...
- solardev 3y ago
  There's something funny about Warren posting on Twitter while shouting about antitrust. I really wish government wouldn't make public announcements on closed platforms. ----- That aside, it seems like an easy way around that would just be for Apple to adopt RCS in addition to iMessage.
  - jtriangle 3y ago
    Let's not turn mountains into molehills here, Twitter isn't really closed, it's just authwalled. So, burner email is all you need to read all the tweets, errr, X's?, that you want. Also, far simpler to take care of beeper, just make all the message bubbles the same color. They'd lose their entire userbase if that happened.
    - ldarby 3y ago
      It's viewable via Nitter: https://nitter.net/SenWarren/status/1733956234200445130 https://nitter.net/SenWarren/status/1733956234200445130 But I agree with the earlier point, that it is a closed platform. If you want to respond, I thought it requires a phone number now in addition to email? It used to at least. And if Twitter doesn't like you, why is your ability to communicate with an official regulated by this private company? And Nitter is likely to get shutdown by Twitter any moment now in the same way as Apple is trying to shutdown Beeper.
  - rchaud 3y ago
    > I really wish government wouldn't make public announcements on closed platforms. Unlike Apple, the government has to meet the people where they are.
- KerrAvon 3y ago
  Apple needs better critics. Senator Warren would be a lot more effective if she or her staff understood how technology actually works. Senator Markey is another person who cares about this stuff but is also incompetent to regulate it.
mike_d 3y ago
> If Apple continues to cut off Beeper's access, it makes an antitrust argument stronger I'm not sure why everyone thinks it is an antitrust issue when it isn't. There is no legal obligation to support your services and software on third party platforms.
- Ajedi32 3y ago
  I'd argue that's not the right framing of the issue. Taking active steps to prevent your services from being used on competing platforms is more than merely "not supporting" them.
  - al_borland 3y ago
    Apple has always made services primarily for the users of their hardware. They are a hardware company that makes their own software and services. The hardware purchase funds the software development. Who decides which platforms get support, if it's not the company making and supporting the service? When BBM was popular, I know a lot of people without Blackberries would have liked to use it, but Blackberry didn't offer it, and no one was threatening legal action against them (that I know of). I don't see how this situation is any different. There are a lot of exclusive services out there, which are locked to specific platforms. Affording legal protection to anyone who hacks their way into a system, and telling the company they can't do anything about it, would create chaos in the tech world. There might be some cool projects, but business models would fall apart, companies would fail, security would be worse than it already is, and I'd question why anyone would try and start something new when they wouldn't be allowed to control it in a way to ensure profitability. Having everything free and open is great, but at some point these services need to be paid for.
    - Ajedi32 3y ago
      > Who decides which platforms get support The developer of the software supporting those platforms. In this case, Beeper. I suppose if Apple wants to say certain users are not allowed to access iMessage unless they've bought an iPhone that's fair. (Maybe you could argue its anticompetitive to bundle services together like that, but I won't assert that point here.) But if that's all this was about then I ought to be able to buy an iPhone, import the access token from that into Beeper on my Android, stuff the iPhone in a drawer, and go about my business. The problem is that Apple wants to dictate not only who has access to iMessage servers, but also how they're allowed to access it. And that is unacceptable in my opinion. "Security" is a poor excuse. If server side software has to rely on trusting the client then it was never secure in the first place. And if client side software wants to "secure" itself against the person who owns it... that's a form of "security" I could do without.

by radlad 3y ago

solardev 3y ago

In the event Apple loses in Europe, I wonder what would happen. Would they really open up iMessage worldwide? Just in Europe? Shut it down there altogether since WhatsApp is already so popular there anyway, and their US market is bigger? And what does this do for Beeper, anyway? If they open it up, wouldn't Google and Samsung just integrate it into their first party messaging clients? It seems as precarious a position as Trillian was back in the day: only usable if the source protocols don't shut them out, but only valuable if those protocols don't open up completely. The moment either happens, they die.

Longhanks 3y ago
Whatever legislation they face, they will implement it in the most hostile way towards non-Apple services/users/companies. See how they implement off-App Store payments in the Netherlands and/or South Korea. Apple is not giving up on iMessage. And, given the legislation becomes to cumbersome to deal with, they will withdraw from countries - they threatened to withdraw iMessage from the UK already. The EU is already becoming a second-class market for technology companies (see Meta's Threads, and many more will follow).
- freedomben 3y ago
  Yep, also the EU has already dropped their iMessage thing

fooey 3y ago

The Beeper vs Apple battle is already getting the attention of US legislators https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/10/senator-warren-calls-out-apple-for-shutting-down-beepers-imessage-to-android-solution/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/10/senator-warren-calls-out-a...

solardev 3y ago
There's something funny about Warren posting on Twitter while shouting about antitrust. I really wish government wouldn't make public announcements on closed platforms. ----- That aside, it seems like an easy way around that would just be for Apple to adopt RCS in addition to iMessage.
- jtriangle 3y ago
  Let's not turn mountains into molehills here, Twitter isn't really closed, it's just authwalled. So, burner email is all you need to read all the tweets, errr, X's?, that you want. Also, far simpler to take care of beeper, just make all the message bubbles the same color. They'd lose their entire userbase if that happened.
  - ldarby 3y ago
    It's viewable via Nitter: https://nitter.net/SenWarren/status/1733956234200445130 https://nitter.net/SenWarren/status/1733956234200445130 But I agree with the earlier point, that it is a closed platform. If you want to respond, I thought it requires a phone number now in addition to email? It used to at least. And if Twitter doesn't like you, why is your ability to communicate with an official regulated by this private company? And Nitter is likely to get shutdown by Twitter any moment now in the same way as Apple is trying to shutdown Beeper.
- rchaud 3y ago
  > I really wish government wouldn't make public announcements on closed platforms. Unlike Apple, the government has to meet the people where they are.
KerrAvon 3y ago
Apple needs better critics. Senator Warren would be a lot more effective if she or her staff understood how technology actually works. Senator Markey is another person who cares about this stuff but is also incompetent to regulate it.

mike_d 3y ago

> If Apple continues to cut off Beeper's access, it makes an antitrust argument stronger I'm not sure why everyone thinks it is an antitrust issue when it isn't. There is no legal obligation to support your services and software on third party platforms.

Ajedi32 3y ago
I'd argue that's not the right framing of the issue. Taking active steps to prevent your services from being used on competing platforms is more than merely "not supporting" them.
- al_borland 3y ago
  Apple has always made services primarily for the users of their hardware. They are a hardware company that makes their own software and services. The hardware purchase funds the software development. Who decides which platforms get support, if it's not the company making and supporting the service? When BBM was popular, I know a lot of people without Blackberries would have liked to use it, but Blackberry didn't offer it, and no one was threatening legal action against them (that I know of). I don't see how this situation is any different. There are a lot of exclusive services out there, which are locked to specific platforms. Affording legal protection to anyone who hacks their way into a system, and telling the company they can't do anything about it, would create chaos in the tech world. There might be some cool projects, but business models would fall apart, companies would fail, security would be worse than it already is, and I'd question why anyone would try and start something new when they wouldn't be allowed to control it in a way to ensure profitability. Having everything free and open is great, but at some point these services need to be paid for.
  - Ajedi32 3y ago
    > Who decides which platforms get support The developer of the software supporting those platforms. In this case, Beeper. I suppose if Apple wants to say certain users are not allowed to access iMessage unless they've bought an iPhone that's fair. (Maybe you could argue its anticompetitive to bundle services together like that, but I won't assert that point here.) But if that's all this was about then I ought to be able to buy an iPhone, import the access token from that into Beeper on my Android, stuff the iPhone in a drawer, and go about my business. The problem is that Apple wants to dictate not only who has access to iMessage servers, but also how they're allowed to access it. And that is unacceptable in my opinion. "Security" is a poor excuse. If server side software has to rely on trusting the client then it was never secure in the first place. And if client side software wants to "secure" itself against the person who owns it... that's a form of "security" I could do without.