7 ms·

I've "corrupted" (from the point of view of GDP productivity and such) a lot of people into asking for (and mostly getting...) a 32h/week work schedule. I've b

by Syonyk 3y ago

I've "corrupted" (from the point of view of GDP productivity and such) a lot of people into asking for (and mostly getting...) a 32h/week work schedule. I've been doing it for almost 8 years now, and at this point, it's simply a non-negotiable in any sort of employment discussions (that, and not carrying a pager). I work Mon-Thu, 8h/day, and I'm generally unreachable Fri/Sat/Sun (doesn't mean I won't put in a long week on rare occasions, but think "once a year or less" sort of frequency). The work/life balance is far better, and it aligns better with my family (the local public school is only Mon-Thu as well). Just ask about it. I know some people who've managed full pay for 80% hours, but generally "80% pay for 80% hours" is entirely reasonable too, and I've found (as a rather extreme DIY sort) that the extra money isn't missed, because I have more time to do things myself on the weekend. I can practically spend quite a few Fridays a year doing major DIY work, and come out ahead. I genuinely cannot say enough good things about it. Try it. You won't miss 40s.

nine_k 3y ago
I'd be tidally fine working 40h a week in four 10h days. A whole new free day is such an improvement that longer hours on other days can't hope to outweigh it.
- nine_k 3y ago
  s/tidally/totally/; talk about creative autocorrect!
burkaman 3y ago
> it aligns better with my family (the local public school is only Mon-Thu as well) This is interesting and makes me think the answer to the title's question is public schools. Most Americans are not in a position to individually ask their employer for a 4-day week, but if the local school system does it, suddenly there's a unified block of thousands of people who really need Friday off to take care of their kids. I had actually never heard of this but according to NPR it's fairly common already: > Seven percent of school districts in the U.S. are now just four days long. In Missouri, it's 30% of districts. In Colorado, it's 67%.
- Syonyk 3y ago
  Huh. I actually didn't know it was that high - it's just the way the local district has worked for decades now.
- nickvec 3y ago
  Interesting. I hope the 4-day school week doesn't exacerbate the education / illiteracy crisis that we are already seeing in America. Not sure if less time in school would help with this, though difficult to comprehend the nuances associated with experiments like this until the data is available.
  - Syonyk 3y ago
    In general, I don't think it's "less time in school" - our local school days are a bit on the long side (for my kids, it's about 7AM to 4PM counting the bus ride), and the year extends further into the summer than a typical school year does. It's just fewer days in school any given week.
    - nickvec 3y ago
      Ah, totally makes sense. In that case, I'm all onboard. I'm sure the kids are too. Who wouldn't want 3 days off every week?
  - burkaman 3y ago
    Data is available and the results seem mixed and difficult to interpret so far, here's an article with links to a bunch of studies: https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points-seven-new-studies-on-the-impact-of-a-four-day-school-week/ https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points-seven-new-studies-o.... It seems like most studies find either no effect on academics or a small negative effect, and sometimes positive social effects like reduced bullying. One point I found interesting: > The four-day work week is an attractive work perk in rural America that may lure better teachers. This makes sense but obviously would disappear if the four-day week became widespread.
  - jakupovic 3y ago
ketzo 3y ago
What do you do for work? Where are you in your career?
- Syonyk 3y ago
  Senior enough, and skilled enough in particular low level arts, that I can set my own terms. And I do "weird low level crap." Generally if I'm interacting with the kernel, it's from below. Think introspection, emulation, hypervisors, "state analysis of a running kernel," firmware weeds, security analysis, etc. If you know a bitter mid-to-late-40s sort who's been in the deep weeds and the security weeds long enough to carry a powered off flip phone and genuinely hate what we've done with computers, imagine that, and you're pretty close.
  - secfirstmd 3y ago
    So you work for the government?
- myaccountonhn 3y ago
  Senior fullstack/backend engineer, work fully remote 32hr/week.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
Wonder how many software devs would be able to do this. When I have a long weekend, a lot of times, its 'finally, no interruptions so I can get some work done', and end up working. Guess, if you have an itch, could fill it with open source projects instead.
- Syonyk 3y ago
  If you're doing interesting, deep level work, I've found I'm a lot more productive when I spend my weekends doing "literally anything but computers." I'll typically spend Thursday afternoon curled up with some datasheets or architecture references related to my current project, and let my mind chew on it over the weekend in the background, while I'm doing other stuff. The distance from the problem allows a fresh perspective, and I not-really-joke that a lot of my most clever solutions to a problem came while I was banging on rocks or running a chainsaw. But I've also built the habits, over the years, of trying to make sure I have way more than just work going on in my life.
  - jakupovic 3y ago
    I wholeheartedly agree and find myself the same. Banging your head on a rock only makes the head hurt
- teaearlgraycold 3y ago
  I do this, but I instead do more like 6 hours across Mon-Fri. If my life circumstances change I can see preferring longer days Mon-Thu.
- Shaanie 3y ago
  I'd wager the majority of software developers do not code at all outside of work hours, and the vast majority do not code more than an hour or two per month on average. The "constantly coding on side projects" developer is pretty rare, in my experience, but tend to bubble together. (in startups, cooler tech companies or in the "innovation teams").
- godelski 3y ago
  > Guess, if you have an itch, could fill it with open source projects instead. Somewhat related, but I do wonder what this community will look like once humans enter a post scarce (or mostly) world. Which a 4 day weekend seems like a step in that direction. Along with the other aspects of what humans will do with their new found free time. Which seems especially interesting in a consumer based economy.
simonh 3y ago
That's great for 9 to 5 type jobs, but some work just needs to be done outside office hours and on weekends. We have teams in other countries to help with time zone cover, but that can only get you so far.
- Syonyk 3y ago
  Sure, but the same is true of a 40h work week - there are still another 128 hours in the week you have to cover. You need 4.2 40h teams of people for full coverage in a 168 hour week. You need 5.25 32h teams for the same coverage. It's not a radical jump.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
MisterTea 3y ago
I negotiated a 4 day week as well and won't go back either. You cant beat having a three day weekend and Fridays off. A co worker does the same but takes Mondays off which works for his family better. I would also like to try a split week: work mon-tues, off wed, work thurs-fri, off sat-sun. This way you have a mini weekend giving you two "friday nights" and there's no weekly gauntlet to run.
- saulpw 3y ago
  I tried a split week with a similar rationale, it wasn't that great. Too hard to get momentum, either at work or at home. I also tried Mondays off instead of Fridays, but for cultural (US) reasons, 3-day weekends with Fridays off is what seems to work best for everyone involved, including people who are working 5-day weeks alongside you. Also note that federal holidays are often on a Monday, so having Mondays off reduces the number of holidays you have. You of course should get your 4-days/week and those holidays, so you should take an extra day off in that case, but the optics of that don't really work. (Maybe this is because those federal holidays are the minimal concession we have towards "people shouldn't work 5 days/week every week).
- lesuorac 3y ago
  In college the big goal was to have weekend wednesdays where you only had classes MT, RF. It was pretty great.
ren_engineer 3y ago
the primary issue I see with this is for things where unfinished work results in something going from being finished the next day to blocked from Thursday until Monday. Some small question or task that could be done in 5 minutes but now has to wait that entire time. Just not going to work for many businesses
- helij 3y ago
  This is a non-issue. I have no issues with helping with a task on Thurs 5:35pm or even 6pm if it will unblock some people. It rarely happens though if your team and organisation are properly managed. You are making up an imaginary issue here I think. Fine if you said it would take 5 hours but come on...5 min task?
apercu 3y ago
I am far, far, far more productive in a 15-25 hour week than I am in a 35-45 hour week. Every hour past 30 is diminishing returns for focus/knowledge work.
kaoD 3y ago
I'm currently working 32h/w and will possibly need to start job hunting for remote. I was prepared to go back to 40h but... I really don't want to. It was life changing. Wondering if I should just hunt for 32h/w offers, if I could potentially miss on great 40h opportunities, etc. What's the success rate of asking for 32h/w in offers not advertised as such?
- Syonyk 3y ago
  None of my 32h/wk arrangements have been listed as such. If it's an interesting 40h position, talk to them and put 32h as one of your non-negotiables in early conversations. Some will tell you they're not willing to consider it, and the conversation is done. Some are willing to consider it.

by Syonyk 3y ago

nine_k 3y ago

I'd be tidally fine working 40h a week in four 10h days. A whole new free day is such an improvement that longer hours on other days can't hope to outweigh it.

nine_k 3y ago
s/tidally/totally/; talk about creative autocorrect!

burkaman 3y ago

> it aligns better with my family (the local public school is only Mon-Thu as well) This is interesting and makes me think the answer to the title's question is public schools. Most Americans are not in a position to individually ask their employer for a 4-day week, but if the local school system does it, suddenly there's a unified block of thousands of people who really need Friday off to take care of their kids. I had actually never heard of this but according to NPR it's fairly common already: > Seven percent of school districts in the U.S. are now just four days long. In Missouri, it's 30% of districts. In Colorado, it's 67%.

Syonyk 3y ago
Huh. I actually didn't know it was that high - it's just the way the local district has worked for decades now.
nickvec 3y ago
Interesting. I hope the 4-day school week doesn't exacerbate the education / illiteracy crisis that we are already seeing in America. Not sure if less time in school would help with this, though difficult to comprehend the nuances associated with experiments like this until the data is available.
- Syonyk 3y ago
  In general, I don't think it's "less time in school" - our local school days are a bit on the long side (for my kids, it's about 7AM to 4PM counting the bus ride), and the year extends further into the summer than a typical school year does. It's just fewer days in school any given week.
  - nickvec 3y ago
    Ah, totally makes sense. In that case, I'm all onboard. I'm sure the kids are too. Who wouldn't want 3 days off every week?
- burkaman 3y ago
  Data is available and the results seem mixed and difficult to interpret so far, here's an article with links to a bunch of studies: https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points-seven-new-studies-on-the-impact-of-a-four-day-school-week/ https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points-seven-new-studies-o.... It seems like most studies find either no effect on academics or a small negative effect, and sometimes positive social effects like reduced bullying. One point I found interesting: > The four-day work week is an attractive work perk in rural America that may lure better teachers. This makes sense but obviously would disappear if the four-day week became widespread.
- jakupovic 3y ago

ketzo 3y ago

What do you do for work? Where are you in your career?

Syonyk 3y ago
Senior enough, and skilled enough in particular low level arts, that I can set my own terms. And I do "weird low level crap." Generally if I'm interacting with the kernel, it's from below. Think introspection, emulation, hypervisors, "state analysis of a running kernel," firmware weeds, security analysis, etc. If you know a bitter mid-to-late-40s sort who's been in the deep weeds and the security weeds long enough to carry a powered off flip phone and genuinely hate what we've done with computers, imagine that, and you're pretty close.
- secfirstmd 3y ago
  So you work for the government?
myaccountonhn 3y ago
Senior fullstack/backend engineer, work fully remote 32hr/week.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

Wonder how many software devs would be able to do this. When I have a long weekend, a lot of times, its 'finally, no interruptions so I can get some work done', and end up working. Guess, if you have an itch, could fill it with open source projects instead.

Syonyk 3y ago
If you're doing interesting, deep level work, I've found I'm a lot more productive when I spend my weekends doing "literally anything but computers." I'll typically spend Thursday afternoon curled up with some datasheets or architecture references related to my current project, and let my mind chew on it over the weekend in the background, while I'm doing other stuff. The distance from the problem allows a fresh perspective, and I not-really-joke that a lot of my most clever solutions to a problem came while I was banging on rocks or running a chainsaw. But I've also built the habits, over the years, of trying to make sure I have way more than just work going on in my life.
- jakupovic 3y ago
  I wholeheartedly agree and find myself the same. Banging your head on a rock only makes the head hurt
teaearlgraycold 3y ago
I do this, but I instead do more like 6 hours across Mon-Fri. If my life circumstances change I can see preferring longer days Mon-Thu.
Shaanie 3y ago
I'd wager the majority of software developers do not code at all outside of work hours, and the vast majority do not code more than an hour or two per month on average. The "constantly coding on side projects" developer is pretty rare, in my experience, but tend to bubble together. (in startups, cooler tech companies or in the "innovation teams").
godelski 3y ago
> Guess, if you have an itch, could fill it with open source projects instead. Somewhat related, but I do wonder what this community will look like once humans enter a post scarce (or mostly) world. Which a 4 day weekend seems like a step in that direction. Along with the other aspects of what humans will do with their new found free time. Which seems especially interesting in a consumer based economy.

simonh 3y ago

That's great for 9 to 5 type jobs, but some work just needs to be done outside office hours and on weekends. We have teams in other countries to help with time zone cover, but that can only get you so far.

Syonyk 3y ago
Sure, but the same is true of a 40h work week - there are still another 128 hours in the week you have to cover. You need 4.2 40h teams of people for full coverage in a 168 hour week. You need 5.25 32h teams for the same coverage. It's not a radical jump.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

MisterTea 3y ago

I negotiated a 4 day week as well and won't go back either. You cant beat having a three day weekend and Fridays off. A co worker does the same but takes Mondays off which works for his family better. I would also like to try a split week: work mon-tues, off wed, work thurs-fri, off sat-sun. This way you have a mini weekend giving you two "friday nights" and there's no weekly gauntlet to run.

saulpw 3y ago
I tried a split week with a similar rationale, it wasn't that great. Too hard to get momentum, either at work or at home. I also tried Mondays off instead of Fridays, but for cultural (US) reasons, 3-day weekends with Fridays off is what seems to work best for everyone involved, including people who are working 5-day weeks alongside you. Also note that federal holidays are often on a Monday, so having Mondays off reduces the number of holidays you have. You of course should get your 4-days/week and those holidays, so you should take an extra day off in that case, but the optics of that don't really work. (Maybe this is because those federal holidays are the minimal concession we have towards "people shouldn't work 5 days/week every week).
lesuorac 3y ago
In college the big goal was to have weekend wednesdays where you only had classes MT, RF. It was pretty great.

ren_engineer 3y ago

the primary issue I see with this is for things where unfinished work results in something going from being finished the next day to blocked from Thursday until Monday. Some small question or task that could be done in 5 minutes but now has to wait that entire time. Just not going to work for many businesses

helij 3y ago
This is a non-issue. I have no issues with helping with a task on Thurs 5:35pm or even 6pm if it will unblock some people. It rarely happens though if your team and organisation are properly managed. You are making up an imaginary issue here I think. Fine if you said it would take 5 hours but come on...5 min task?

apercu 3y ago

I am far, far, far more productive in a 15-25 hour week than I am in a 35-45 hour week. Every hour past 30 is diminishing returns for focus/knowledge work.

kaoD 3y ago

I'm currently working 32h/w and will possibly need to start job hunting for remote. I was prepared to go back to 40h but... I really don't want to. It was life changing. Wondering if I should just hunt for 32h/w offers, if I could potentially miss on great 40h opportunities, etc. What's the success rate of asking for 32h/w in offers not advertised as such?

Syonyk 3y ago
None of my 32h/wk arrangements have been listed as such. If it's an interesting 40h position, talk to them and put 32h as one of your non-negotiables in early conversations. Some will tell you they're not willing to consider it, and the conversation is done. Some are willing to consider it.