4 ms·

The police and prosecution are the ones using these tools to attack innocent people. The article opens with a case of the corrupt prosecution intentionally and

by sneak 3y ago

The police and prosecution are the ones using these tools to attack innocent people. The article opens with a case of the corrupt prosecution intentionally and illegally withholding evidence. This isn’t about bad science, this is about bad prosecutors who are more interested in convictions than justice. Selective enforcement and opportunities to engage in misconduct like this are endemic in the US criminal justice system. Police and prosecutors have far too much power before and during trial, and far too much wiggle room to seek convictions for innocent people.

causal 3y ago
I've always been perplexed by the incentive to get convictions. This is guaranteed to result in prosecutors preferring any method with a lot of false positives.
- Zigurd 3y ago
  Separating evidence processing from law enforcement would be a good step forward.
  - sneak 3y ago
    I think the system of American policing was originally cooked up to enforce the existing social hierarchy via selective enforcement, and it appears to remain mostly unchanged because it seems to continue to serve that same purpose. Why would people with power to change it do so, when it is working as intended? Prosecutors don’t bring charges against police and judges and senators and large landowners/rightsholders (or the DNI).
- qingcharles 3y ago
  If you're a prosecutor you need to prosecute. If you don't win cases, you're not going to keep your employment. QED.
- Lord-Jobo 3y ago
  Perverse incentives are one of the worst issues in modern law enforcement. They exist at nearly every step and they are causing a rot that will take decades lot of concentrated effort to remove. if you build a system, patchwork, entirely reactive, from the deep roots of racism and anti-labor movements (https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/)(https://nleomf.org/slave-patrols-an-early-form-of-american-policing) https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/)(https://nl... and then ignore the nearly 50% rate of decline in violent crime since 1993(https://www.statista.com/statistics/191129/reported-violent-crime-in-the-us-since-1990/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/191129/reported-violent-...), and in fact, have a population undergo a rapid INCREASE in PERCEIVED violent crime (https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/ozgaysrcqku8igcmvkhtba.png https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Pro...).... well its hard to be surprised. If we wanted to actually evolve our system, top to bottom, to focus on reduced recidivism and a reduced prison population without increasing violent crime, one of the first steps we should take is a deep pass over every perverse incentive in the system. Revenue sources has to be the biggest category. Ignoring salary, there are so many fines and fees that directly fund the police. (https://www.brennancenter.org/series/how-perverse-financial-incentives-warp-criminal-justice-system https://www.brennancenter.org/series/how-perverse-financial-...) civil asset forfeiture is plain and open theft, and it directly incentivizes as many arrests as possible. incarceration facilities of all kinds are funded based on bed space and occupancy for christs sake (https://www.brennancenter.org/series/how-perverse-financial-incentives-warp-criminal-justice-system https://www.brennancenter.org/series/how-perverse-financial-...) Military cooperation agreements give all sorts of free military tech to police agencies and swat teams, and they constantly take christmas morning style photos with them (https://wallpapercave.com/wp/wp9861590.jpg https://wallpapercave.com/wp/wp9861590.jpg). a small town near my hometown had a population of 4500 when the 'police department' (police force was 30ish people) got a fucking APC from the military for free. This was in 2010ish so i cant find a direct source, but i did see it in person.
WaitWaitWha 3y ago
> The police and prosecution are the ones using these tools to attack innocent people. ... and the defense fails to hire their own expert witness, or use same exact method to keep people out of prison. (Remember "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit"? Cochran did not come up with it by himself, but an expert provided it to him, the glove not fitting.) Assuming you are talking about US, adversarial courts.
- Lord-Jobo 3y ago
  the defense will always have less time and money to get their own expert witness, and i can tell you for absolute certainty that there is way more demand than supply for defense experts. and yes they have a million other disadvantages that are SUPPOSED to be balanced by the advantage that the standard burden of proof offers. but that is clearly failing if prosecution experts are running rampant with few checks, and 95-98%(!) of criminal cases plead out before a trial even occurs. public defenders are time constrained in the extreme(https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/01/31/us/public-defender-case-loads.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/01/31/us/public-def...), and public defendants are financially constrained in the extreme. its a terrible mixture.

by sneak 3y ago

causal 3y ago

I've always been perplexed by the incentive to get convictions. This is guaranteed to result in prosecutors preferring any method with a lot of false positives.

Zigurd 3y ago
Separating evidence processing from law enforcement would be a good step forward.
- sneak 3y ago
  I think the system of American policing was originally cooked up to enforce the existing social hierarchy via selective enforcement, and it appears to remain mostly unchanged because it seems to continue to serve that same purpose. Why would people with power to change it do so, when it is working as intended? Prosecutors don’t bring charges against police and judges and senators and large landowners/rightsholders (or the DNI).
qingcharles 3y ago
If you're a prosecutor you need to prosecute. If you don't win cases, you're not going to keep your employment. QED.
Lord-Jobo 3y ago
Perverse incentives are one of the worst issues in modern law enforcement. They exist at nearly every step and they are causing a rot that will take decades lot of concentrated effort to remove. if you build a system, patchwork, entirely reactive, from the deep roots of racism and anti-labor movements (https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/)(https://nleomf.org/slave-patrols-an-early-form-of-american-policing) https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/)(https://nl... and then ignore the nearly 50% rate of decline in violent crime since 1993(https://www.statista.com/statistics/191129/reported-violent-crime-in-the-us-since-1990/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/191129/reported-violent-...), and in fact, have a population undergo a rapid INCREASE in PERCEIVED violent crime (https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/ozgaysrcqku8igcmvkhtba.png https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Pro...).... well its hard to be surprised. If we wanted to actually evolve our system, top to bottom, to focus on reduced recidivism and a reduced prison population without increasing violent crime, one of the first steps we should take is a deep pass over every perverse incentive in the system. Revenue sources has to be the biggest category. Ignoring salary, there are so many fines and fees that directly fund the police. (https://www.brennancenter.org/series/how-perverse-financial-incentives-warp-criminal-justice-system https://www.brennancenter.org/series/how-perverse-financial-...) civil asset forfeiture is plain and open theft, and it directly incentivizes as many arrests as possible. incarceration facilities of all kinds are funded based on bed space and occupancy for christs sake (https://www.brennancenter.org/series/how-perverse-financial-incentives-warp-criminal-justice-system https://www.brennancenter.org/series/how-perverse-financial-...) Military cooperation agreements give all sorts of free military tech to police agencies and swat teams, and they constantly take christmas morning style photos with them (https://wallpapercave.com/wp/wp9861590.jpg https://wallpapercave.com/wp/wp9861590.jpg). a small town near my hometown had a population of 4500 when the 'police department' (police force was 30ish people) got a fucking APC from the military for free. This was in 2010ish so i cant find a direct source, but i did see it in person.

WaitWaitWha 3y ago

> The police and prosecution are the ones using these tools to attack innocent people. ... and the defense fails to hire their own expert witness, or use same exact method to keep people out of prison. (Remember "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit"? Cochran did not come up with it by himself, but an expert provided it to him, the glove not fitting.) Assuming you are talking about US, adversarial courts.

Lord-Jobo 3y ago
the defense will always have less time and money to get their own expert witness, and i can tell you for absolute certainty that there is way more demand than supply for defense experts. and yes they have a million other disadvantages that are SUPPOSED to be balanced by the advantage that the standard burden of proof offers. but that is clearly failing if prosecution experts are running rampant with few checks, and 95-98%(!) of criminal cases plead out before a trial even occurs. public defenders are time constrained in the extreme(https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/01/31/us/public-defender-case-loads.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/01/31/us/public-def...), and public defendants are financially constrained in the extreme. its a terrible mixture.