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> The F in FOSS stands for free, so nobody is under any obligation to spend their time so you don't spend yours. Your conclusion generalizes to no-charge softw

> The F in FOSS stands for free, so nobody is under any obligation to spend their time so you don't spend yours. Your conclusion generalizes to no-charge software, not to all FOSS. The "free" in FOSS stands for free software, meaning free as in freedom rather than free as in price. If a program is free software [1] then a user of the program can read the source code, modify it, and distribute (including sell) unmodified and modified versions of the program/code. A user who lacks the program or the code isn't entitled to the freedoms but can get the software from someone else who has it. Developers of free software can charge for it. One way of making money from free software is charging for access to the developer's server. Another way is charging for more expansive user support. (Alternatives to charging for the software itself include requesting donations and selling physical merchandise.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software

Dalewyn 3y ago
I'm fully aware the F in FOSS stands for free-as-in-libre. I'm also aware that FOSS developers by and large refuse the exchange of any and all money both as buyers and sellers for services rendered. You say developers of free-as-in-libre software can charge for them, but in practice any developer that tries to sell his free-as-in-libre software will be viciously laughed out of the room by everyone else. The F in FOSS in practice stands both for free-as-in-libre and free-as-in-beer. And you don't get to talk about the quality of free beer.
- Racing0461 3y ago
  Can you guys lemma know when is the year of the linux desktop? I wanna add it to calcurse.
  - Qem 3y ago
    If Micro$oft keeps enshittifying their OS at current rates, I bet a lot of people will get fed up and jump ship to Linux after one or two more windows releases. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      Windows 11, for all its faults, enables me to do the things I want to do on a computer. Likewise Android, and to a lesser degree even iOS and MacOS I admit. Linux however demands me to do the computer, it doesn't enable me to do anything because I'm too busy doing computer bullshit. This isn't necessarily surprising, since the goal of Linux (more accurately FOSS) is to use FOSS and isn't concerned about what I need/want to do. So no, most people (or at least myself) will not move from Windows to Linux. I use computers to do things, not preach the holy scriptures of FOSS.
      - Zambyte 3y ago
        Which decade was the last one you used GNU/Linux in?
        sbuk 3y ago
        It’s getting better, and with more people working with browser based tools the underlying OS is becoming less relevant. That said, the Gnome folks do seem user hostile. And I get that most Linux distro users like to tweak their config (part of the joy of their experience), it does lead to choice paralysis for a lot of folks. Add that hardware support can still be hit and miss (I concede that it has improved massively), it’s still not the computing panacea that the more enthusiastic and vocal proponents would have you believe. Likewise, neither are macOS or Windows panaceas, nor are they as repugnantly shit as those same folk would like to tell you either.
    - CyberDildonics 3y ago
      People have thought the same thing with every version of windows, a word made up by a blogger last year isn't going to change that. Linux's interface is still archaic compared to windows 7 unfortunately.
      - Qem 3y ago
        For me their high point was XP. It's downhill since then, in terms of dark patterns and user hostility.
- pastage 3y ago
  I am guessing you mean you can not complain about edge case quality in Free Software. Because people discuss quality all the time. Getting video crashless seems hard, I had problems back in 2006. Have not tried again.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    I don't think it's unreasonable to demand that products and tools don't spontaneously combust frequently, so long as that demand is based on warranties and other such professional/commercial guarantees. FOSS's primary problem is that the goal is the tool itself, rather than what is done with the tools: Commercial software exist to let the end user achieve something, which in turn generates profit for the commercial developers. FOSS exist to let the FOSS developers achieve their dreams, end users be damned. A video editor crashing every hour is a problem for the end user, but if the FOSS developer doesn't care then that's that. This is why Photoshop will continue to surpass GIMP, and why exceptional FOSS like Blender succeed where other FOSS do not.

Dalewyn 3y ago

I'm fully aware the F in FOSS stands for free-as-in-libre. I'm also aware that FOSS developers by and large refuse the exchange of any and all money both as buyers and sellers for services rendered. You say developers of free-as-in-libre software can charge for them, but in practice any developer that tries to sell his free-as-in-libre software will be viciously laughed out of the room by everyone else. The F in FOSS in practice stands both for free-as-in-libre and free-as-in-beer. And you don't get to talk about the quality of free beer.

Racing0461 3y ago
Can you guys lemma know when is the year of the linux desktop? I wanna add it to calcurse.
- Qem 3y ago
  If Micro$oft keeps enshittifying their OS at current rates, I bet a lot of people will get fed up and jump ship to Linux after one or two more windows releases. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    Windows 11, for all its faults, enables me to do the things I want to do on a computer. Likewise Android, and to a lesser degree even iOS and MacOS I admit. Linux however demands me to do the computer, it doesn't enable me to do anything because I'm too busy doing computer bullshit. This isn't necessarily surprising, since the goal of Linux (more accurately FOSS) is to use FOSS and isn't concerned about what I need/want to do. So no, most people (or at least myself) will not move from Windows to Linux. I use computers to do things, not preach the holy scriptures of FOSS.
    - Zambyte 3y ago
      Which decade was the last one you used GNU/Linux in?
      - sbuk 3y ago
        It’s getting better, and with more people working with browser based tools the underlying OS is becoming less relevant. That said, the Gnome folks do seem user hostile. And I get that most Linux distro users like to tweak their config (part of the joy of their experience), it does lead to choice paralysis for a lot of folks. Add that hardware support can still be hit and miss (I concede that it has improved massively), it’s still not the computing panacea that the more enthusiastic and vocal proponents would have you believe. Likewise, neither are macOS or Windows panaceas, nor are they as repugnantly shit as those same folk would like to tell you either.
  - CyberDildonics 3y ago
    People have thought the same thing with every version of windows, a word made up by a blogger last year isn't going to change that. Linux's interface is still archaic compared to windows 7 unfortunately.
    - Qem 3y ago
      For me their high point was XP. It's downhill since then, in terms of dark patterns and user hostility.
pastage 3y ago
I am guessing you mean you can not complain about edge case quality in Free Software. Because people discuss quality all the time. Getting video crashless seems hard, I had problems back in 2006. Have not tried again.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  I don't think it's unreasonable to demand that products and tools don't spontaneously combust frequently, so long as that demand is based on warranties and other such professional/commercial guarantees. FOSS's primary problem is that the goal is the tool itself, rather than what is done with the tools: Commercial software exist to let the end user achieve something, which in turn generates profit for the commercial developers. FOSS exist to let the FOSS developers achieve their dreams, end users be damned. A video editor crashing every hour is a problem for the end user, but if the FOSS developer doesn't care then that's that. This is why Photoshop will continue to surpass GIMP, and why exceptional FOSS like Blender succeed where other FOSS do not.