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> when a Palestian says "Free Palestine", what do you think they mean by that? What does Free mean there? Let's also just agree that "end the occupation" is a s

> when a Palestian says "Free Palestine", what do you think they mean by that? What does Free mean there? Let's also just agree that "end the occupation" is a synonym for "Free Palestine". What does "end the occupation" actually mean? The two territories that are currently nominally under palestinian "control" are the strip of Gaza and the West Bank. However, they are both controlled by Israel in various ways. I will briefly list just a few of those ways below (simple googling will reveal far more), with citations, focusing primarily on the West Bank which does not have any recent history of violent resistance against Israel's occupation, and which is pursuing a peaceful resolution. Under this context, Palestine being free would involve not being subject to the occupation and having the ability to self-govern, instead of about 50% of the population of the entire territory (Israel + occupied Palestinian territories together) living under what Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch call apartheid [5, 6]. It is not difficult at all to understand that absolutely no group of living humans would want to willingly live under such conditions, and would want to be free from it. Those who oppose their freedom will often jump to interpreting their call for freedom in the worst possible way, arguing that it implies violence against those occupying them, and thus cannot be allowed. It is the responsibility of the occupier, the party holding overwhelming military strength and currently enforcing the occupation, to figure out a way to a peaceful resolution that allows the occupied party to live with dignity. That they might be afraid of lifting the occupation, in many ways speaks about their conduct and perhaps justified fear of possible revenge; and that is still absolutely not a valid argument to maintain the occupation and keep denying liberty to about 50% of the population of that land. - Funding for both territories [1] - Strict control of the borders of both territories and an actual military occupation. Even Joe Biden who has proved himself strongly on the side of Israel calls this what it is [2] - Regular night raids and arrests in West Bank [3], arresting and holding minors prisoners under military law, many prisoners being held without being charged with any crime at all - To add to the previous two points, Israel even exercises the ability to forbid Palestinians of West Bank to celebrate when their family members are released [4] [1] https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/israel-hamas-war-tax-palestinian-authority https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/israel-hamas-war-tax-palest... [2] https://www.timesofisrael.com/state-dept-confirms-us-views-israels-control-over-west-bank-as-occupation/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/state-dept-confirms-us-views-i... [3] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/7/israel-intensifies-daily-raids-on-occupied-west-bank https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/7/israel-intensifies-... [4] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ahead-of-slated-palestinian-prisoner-release-ben-gvir-tells-police-to-shut-down-celebrations/ar-AA1kpiFS https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ahead-of-slated-palesti... [5] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-... [6] https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra...

rendall 3y ago
Are you Palestinian, C6JEsQeQa5fCjE? We want to understand what Palestinians mean by "free". What Westerners such as Joe Biden, HRW, Amnesty and American college students think it (should) mean is important, but at the end of the day, when Palestine is free, these people will not be there and Palestinians will. > Those who oppose their freedom will often jump to interpreting their call for freedom in the worst possible way... Perhaps so! Let's apply the Principle of Charity at all times to Palestinian calls for freedom and interpret them in the best possible way! But before we investigate, I will ask you the same question that I asked GP: what evidence if any, no matter how unlikely, would it take to convince you that when Palestinians say "free" they generally mean "free of Jews and other infidels"?
- C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 3y ago
  Questioning the purity and peacefulness of thoughts and intentions of (a subgroup of) a people living under colonial occupation is satire at best. Check out [1] for one of many well-written articles on this topic. I will only say that if Russia invaded and occupied Finland (again), that the Finnish probably would not appreciate being questioned whether their calls for their freedom are made under absolutely no ill will towards the Russian occupation forces and settlers that are colonizing their territory. [1] https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/12/10/how-international-law-is-used-to-cover-up-israeli-settler-colonialism https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/12/10/how-internatio...
  - rendall 3y ago
    > Questioning the purity and peacefulness of thoughts and intentions of (a subgroup of) a people living under colonial occupation is satire at best. There is an answer to the question "What do Palestinians generally mean when they say Free Palestine" and it is directly relevant to what will happen when Palestine is freed. Discovering the answer to that question is what we would attempt to do here. And at all times applying the best interpretation possible given the evidence. That is to say, where more than one interpretation is possible, assuming good faith. Perhaps it means only "individual autonomy and personal freedom for all". We make no assumptions. Would you like to investigate with me? Applying history in that way is thinking by analogy, not from first principles. Finland is not Palestine, Russia is not Israel. What principles are you applying to bring you to your political stance? Do they apply equally to Palestians and Israelis? If not why not? What is the principle involved? Is genocide always bad or sometimes ok in the right cause, in your opinion?

rendall 3y ago

Are you Palestinian, C6JEsQeQa5fCjE? We want to understand what Palestinians mean by "free". What Westerners such as Joe Biden, HRW, Amnesty and American college students think it (should) mean is important, but at the end of the day, when Palestine is free, these people will not be there and Palestinians will. > Those who oppose their freedom will often jump to interpreting their call for freedom in the worst possible way... Perhaps so! Let's apply the Principle of Charity at all times to Palestinian calls for freedom and interpret them in the best possible way! But before we investigate, I will ask you the same question that I asked GP: what evidence if any, no matter how unlikely, would it take to convince you that when Palestinians say "free" they generally mean "free of Jews and other infidels"?

C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 3y ago
Questioning the purity and peacefulness of thoughts and intentions of (a subgroup of) a people living under colonial occupation is satire at best. Check out [1] for one of many well-written articles on this topic. I will only say that if Russia invaded and occupied Finland (again), that the Finnish probably would not appreciate being questioned whether their calls for their freedom are made under absolutely no ill will towards the Russian occupation forces and settlers that are colonizing their territory. [1] https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/12/10/how-international-law-is-used-to-cover-up-israeli-settler-colonialism https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/12/10/how-internatio...
- rendall 3y ago
  > Questioning the purity and peacefulness of thoughts and intentions of (a subgroup of) a people living under colonial occupation is satire at best. There is an answer to the question "What do Palestinians generally mean when they say Free Palestine" and it is directly relevant to what will happen when Palestine is freed. Discovering the answer to that question is what we would attempt to do here. And at all times applying the best interpretation possible given the evidence. That is to say, where more than one interpretation is possible, assuming good faith. Perhaps it means only "individual autonomy and personal freedom for all". We make no assumptions. Would you like to investigate with me? Applying history in that way is thinking by analogy, not from first principles. Finland is not Palestine, Russia is not Israel. What principles are you applying to bring you to your political stance? Do they apply equally to Palestians and Israelis? If not why not? What is the principle involved? Is genocide always bad or sometimes ok in the right cause, in your opinion?