4 ms·

There's certainly more than a little projection at work in this insistence that the only way to establish a free sovereign state is to commit genocide against o

There's certainly more than a little projection at work in this insistence that the only way to establish a free sovereign state is to commit genocide against one group or another.

HDThoreaun 3y ago
There's certainly more than a little naivety at work in this insistence that israelis and palestinians could somehow live together without killing each other. I think a two state solution is possible, but there is absolutely no chance of a one state solution that doesnt involve kicking out one of the two groups. This misunderstanding is the whole issue here, people calling for a one state solution have no vision of what the state would actually look like. "oh they'll just live together in peace and forget about their utter hatred of each other" is not a realistic vision
- rendall 3y ago
  I actually believe that Israelis would be quite delighted by a peaceful, prosperous neighbor. If they could trust Palestinians not to murder them in their sleep, they would even be fine with Palestinian citizens. That last is an asterisk, but I do not think Israelis in general feel an ongoing malevolent hostility towards Palestinians. I think mostly they would like them to chill tf out.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    Many of them absolutely would, the question is how do we get to a place where they can trust Palestinians to not murder them in their sleep? There's also the problem of the growing right wing Israelis who believe god gave them the entire levant and are unwilling to give up on that vision. This group is not the majority in Israel, but their birth rate is much, much higher, so they eventually will be. The current defense minister is in this group which is a huge problem as it eliminates palestinian incentive to negotiate in good faith since they know the current government will not settle for anything less than full control of the west bank.
    - rendall 3y ago
      > the question is how do we get to a place where they can trust Palestinians to not murder them in their sleep? You'll know that I mean no snark when I say 'LOL'. After all of the emotionalism on this topic, it's so nice to finally meet someone who has a clear-eyed understanding of what's going on over there.
      - rendall 3y ago
        But to answer your question about how to bring Palestinians where they could accept a 2 state. Hmm. It's going to be tough. Really tough. PSAs? Denazification campaigns? A real puppet government? How to mitigate outside influences like Hezbollah and Iran? Intractable. There must be a visible, palpable model for a better way that is easy for people to embrace. "Maybe I can't have all of Palestine for my people, but I can have a home and safety for those I love, and a good life."
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    Is that why they started relentlessly colonizing the west bank the moment the west bank stopped the armed struggle? What a peaceful neighbor indeed.
    - rendall 3y ago
      I do not know much about those settlers, but I wonder if those guys will be dealt with when a more leftist government is elected.
rendall 3y ago
> There's certainly more than a little projection at work in this insistence that the only way to establish a free sovereign state is to commit genocide against one group or another. I agree that it's not necessary to commit genocide to establish a sovereign state! In fact, it's getting in the way.

There's certainly more than a little projection at work in this insistence that the only way to establish a free sovereign state is to commit genocide against one group or another.

HDThoreaun 3y ago

There's certainly more than a little naivety at work in this insistence that israelis and palestinians could somehow live together without killing each other. I think a two state solution is possible, but there is absolutely no chance of a one state solution that doesnt involve kicking out one of the two groups. This misunderstanding is the whole issue here, people calling for a one state solution have no vision of what the state would actually look like. "oh they'll just live together in peace and forget about their utter hatred of each other" is not a realistic vision

rendall 3y ago
I actually believe that Israelis would be quite delighted by a peaceful, prosperous neighbor. If they could trust Palestinians not to murder them in their sleep, they would even be fine with Palestinian citizens. That last is an asterisk, but I do not think Israelis in general feel an ongoing malevolent hostility towards Palestinians. I think mostly they would like them to chill tf out.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  Many of them absolutely would, the question is how do we get to a place where they can trust Palestinians to not murder them in their sleep? There's also the problem of the growing right wing Israelis who believe god gave them the entire levant and are unwilling to give up on that vision. This group is not the majority in Israel, but their birth rate is much, much higher, so they eventually will be. The current defense minister is in this group which is a huge problem as it eliminates palestinian incentive to negotiate in good faith since they know the current government will not settle for anything less than full control of the west bank.
  - rendall 3y ago
    > the question is how do we get to a place where they can trust Palestinians to not murder them in their sleep? You'll know that I mean no snark when I say 'LOL'. After all of the emotionalism on this topic, it's so nice to finally meet someone who has a clear-eyed understanding of what's going on over there.
    - rendall 3y ago
      But to answer your question about how to bring Palestinians where they could accept a 2 state. Hmm. It's going to be tough. Really tough. PSAs? Denazification campaigns? A real puppet government? How to mitigate outside influences like Hezbollah and Iran? Intractable. There must be a visible, palpable model for a better way that is easy for people to embrace. "Maybe I can't have all of Palestine for my people, but I can have a home and safety for those I love, and a good life."
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  Is that why they started relentlessly colonizing the west bank the moment the west bank stopped the armed struggle? What a peaceful neighbor indeed.
  - rendall 3y ago
    I do not know much about those settlers, but I wonder if those guys will be dealt with when a more leftist government is elected.

rendall 3y ago

> There's certainly more than a little projection at work in this insistence that the only way to establish a free sovereign state is to commit genocide against one group or another. I agree that it's not necessary to commit genocide to establish a sovereign state! In fact, it's getting in the way.