> there's a real (10%+?) chance of total environmental collapse in our lifetimes I suppose I could be described as a doomer too, but I think this understates t

> there's a real (10%+?) chance of total environmental collapse in our lifetimes I suppose I could be described as a doomer too, but I think this understates the issue. Even if we got carbon emissions to zero today, we're facing a very real chance of imminent ecological collapse in our lifetimes. Climate change is just the tip of the iceberg. To all appearances, (post)industrial civilization is not sustainable, whether or not you use fossil fuels.