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Is it really a misunderstanding? Let us investigate! Perhaps you are right! First, tell me, cempaka, when a Palestian says "Free Palestine", what do you think t

Is it really a misunderstanding? Let us investigate! Perhaps you are right! First, tell me, cempaka, when a Palestian says "Free Palestine", what do you think they mean by that? What does Free mean there? Let's also just agree that "end the occupation" is a synonym for "Free Palestine". What does "end the occupation" actually mean? Like, what would the social and political organization of the region be when Palestine is finally "free"?

rendall 3y ago
Not sure why this was flagged. Explain.
cempaka 3y ago
Different people using the slogan have different intentions. Some want a two-state solution, some want a single secular state without all of the Israeli ethnostate garbage. I am sure there are also a handful of Islamists (99.99999% of them nowhere near American university campuses) who also want to kill all Jews, but their relatively small proportion speaks to why interpreting the slogans as inherently genocidal is, again, mistaken or dishonest.
- rendall 3y ago
  > Different people using the slogan have different intentions Ok, so just to be clear, we want to investigate what Palestinians mean by the phrase, since they ultimately will determine what "free" means when Palestine is free. Does that make sense? Let us not muddy the waters with what American college students believe the phrase means. 99.9999% of American college students will be nowhere near Palestine when it is freed. Only Palestinian voices matter, here, agreed? So, it's your belief that Palestinians have a diverse opinion on the topic? Some want a 2-state solution, some want a 1-state secular democracy, and only a very tiny miniscule minority want an ethno-state with no Jews or other infidels? Is there any evidence that would change your mind on that, no matter how unlikely? Like, if I could wave a magic wand and present to you with incontrovertible evidence that actually the overwhelming majority of Palestinians want Jews entirely gone "from the river to the sea", what would that evidence look like? Would it look like poll results?
C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 3y ago
> when a Palestian says "Free Palestine", what do you think they mean by that? What does Free mean there? Let's also just agree that "end the occupation" is a synonym for "Free Palestine". What does "end the occupation" actually mean? The two territories that are currently nominally under palestinian "control" are the strip of Gaza and the West Bank. However, they are both controlled by Israel in various ways. I will briefly list just a few of those ways below (simple googling will reveal far more), with citations, focusing primarily on the West Bank which does not have any recent history of violent resistance against Israel's occupation, and which is pursuing a peaceful resolution. Under this context, Palestine being free would involve not being subject to the occupation and having the ability to self-govern, instead of about 50% of the population of the entire territory (Israel + occupied Palestinian territories together) living under what Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch call apartheid [5, 6]. It is not difficult at all to understand that absolutely no group of living humans would want to willingly live under such conditions, and would want to be free from it. Those who oppose their freedom will often jump to interpreting their call for freedom in the worst possible way, arguing that it implies violence against those occupying them, and thus cannot be allowed. It is the responsibility of the occupier, the party holding overwhelming military strength and currently enforcing the occupation, to figure out a way to a peaceful resolution that allows the occupied party to live with dignity. That they might be afraid of lifting the occupation, in many ways speaks about their conduct and perhaps justified fear of possible revenge; and that is still absolutely not a valid argument to maintain the occupation and keep denying liberty to about 50% of the population of that land. - Funding for both territories [1] - Strict control of the borders of both territories and an actual military occupation. Even Joe Biden who has proved himself strongly on the side of Israel calls this what it is [2] - Regular night raids and arrests in West Bank [3], arresting and holding minors prisoners under military law, many prisoners being held without being charged with any crime at all - To add to the previous two points, Israel even exercises the ability to forbid Palestinians of West Bank to celebrate when their family members are released [4] [1] https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/israel-hamas-war-tax-palestinian-authority https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/israel-hamas-war-tax-palest... [2] https://www.timesofisrael.com/state-dept-confirms-us-views-israels-control-over-west-bank-as-occupation/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/state-dept-confirms-us-views-i... [3] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/7/israel-intensifies-daily-raids-on-occupied-west-bank https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/7/israel-intensifies-... [4] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ahead-of-slated-palestinian-prisoner-release-ben-gvir-tells-police-to-shut-down-celebrations/ar-AA1kpiFS https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ahead-of-slated-palesti... [5] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-... [6] https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra...

rendall 3y ago

Not sure why this was flagged. Explain.

cempaka 3y ago

Different people using the slogan have different intentions. Some want a two-state solution, some want a single secular state without all of the Israeli ethnostate garbage. I am sure there are also a handful of Islamists (99.99999% of them nowhere near American university campuses) who also want to kill all Jews, but their relatively small proportion speaks to why interpreting the slogans as inherently genocidal is, again, mistaken or dishonest.

rendall 3y ago
> Different people using the slogan have different intentions Ok, so just to be clear, we want to investigate what Palestinians mean by the phrase, since they ultimately will determine what "free" means when Palestine is free. Does that make sense? Let us not muddy the waters with what American college students believe the phrase means. 99.9999% of American college students will be nowhere near Palestine when it is freed. Only Palestinian voices matter, here, agreed? So, it's your belief that Palestinians have a diverse opinion on the topic? Some want a 2-state solution, some want a 1-state secular democracy, and only a very tiny miniscule minority want an ethno-state with no Jews or other infidels? Is there any evidence that would change your mind on that, no matter how unlikely? Like, if I could wave a magic wand and present to you with incontrovertible evidence that actually the overwhelming majority of Palestinians want Jews entirely gone "from the river to the sea", what would that evidence look like? Would it look like poll results?

C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 3y ago

> when a Palestian says "Free Palestine", what do you think they mean by that? What does Free mean there? Let's also just agree that "end the occupation" is a synonym for "Free Palestine". What does "end the occupation" actually mean? The two territories that are currently nominally under palestinian "control" are the strip of Gaza and the West Bank. However, they are both controlled by Israel in various ways. I will briefly list just a few of those ways below (simple googling will reveal far more), with citations, focusing primarily on the West Bank which does not have any recent history of violent resistance against Israel's occupation, and which is pursuing a peaceful resolution. Under this context, Palestine being free would involve not being subject to the occupation and having the ability to self-govern, instead of about 50% of the population of the entire territory (Israel + occupied Palestinian territories together) living under what Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch call apartheid [5, 6]. It is not difficult at all to understand that absolutely no group of living humans would want to willingly live under such conditions, and would want to be free from it. Those who oppose their freedom will often jump to interpreting their call for freedom in the worst possible way, arguing that it implies violence against those occupying them, and thus cannot be allowed. It is the responsibility of the occupier, the party holding overwhelming military strength and currently enforcing the occupation, to figure out a way to a peaceful resolution that allows the occupied party to live with dignity. That they might be afraid of lifting the occupation, in many ways speaks about their conduct and perhaps justified fear of possible revenge; and that is still absolutely not a valid argument to maintain the occupation and keep denying liberty to about 50% of the population of that land. - Funding for both territories [1] - Strict control of the borders of both territories and an actual military occupation. Even Joe Biden who has proved himself strongly on the side of Israel calls this what it is [2] - Regular night raids and arrests in West Bank [3], arresting and holding minors prisoners under military law, many prisoners being held without being charged with any crime at all - To add to the previous two points, Israel even exercises the ability to forbid Palestinians of West Bank to celebrate when their family members are released [4] [1] https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/israel-hamas-war-tax-palestinian-authority https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/israel-hamas-war-tax-palest... [2] https://www.timesofisrael.com/state-dept-confirms-us-views-israels-control-over-west-bank-as-occupation/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/state-dept-confirms-us-views-i... [3] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/7/israel-intensifies-daily-raids-on-occupied-west-bank https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/7/israel-intensifies-... [4] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ahead-of-slated-palestinian-prisoner-release-ben-gvir-tells-police-to-shut-down-celebrations/ar-AA1kpiFS https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ahead-of-slated-palesti... [5] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-... [6] https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra...