4 ms·

What is an example of a call to "genocide 'Zionists' " which you have observed? Every example I have seen just amounts to a mistaken or dishonest interpretation

What is an example of a call to "genocide 'Zionists' " which you have observed? Every example I have seen just amounts to a mistaken or dishonest interpretation of "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" or the term "Intifada."

HDThoreaun 3y ago
"globalize the intifada" has to mean the genocide of Jews. How could it mean anything else? "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is at least up for debate, but any amount of thought would quickly lead to conclusion that the jews living in Israel would be genocided if that happened. There is no realistic scenario where palestinians and israelis live together in peace, any call for a one state solution necessarily includes the killing of the side that doesnt control the government.
- rendall 3y ago
  My theory is that when Westerners, especially Americans, hear "Free Palestine" what resonates is "Free Tibet", or Martin Luther King Jr intoning "Free at last!", or "Free South Africa". They imagine Free means sovereignty, independence, peace, freedom to pursue happiness. How can one not get behind that?? "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will enjoy peace, freedom, prosperity, tolerance, ease, high quality of life, individual autonomy, diversity!" It sounds wonderful!
- cempaka 3y ago
  There's certainly more than a little projection at work in this insistence that the only way to establish a free sovereign state is to commit genocide against one group or another.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    There's certainly more than a little naivety at work in this insistence that israelis and palestinians could somehow live together without killing each other. I think a two state solution is possible, but there is absolutely no chance of a one state solution that doesnt involve kicking out one of the two groups. This misunderstanding is the whole issue here, people calling for a one state solution have no vision of what the state would actually look like. "oh they'll just live together in peace and forget about their utter hatred of each other" is not a realistic vision
    - rendall 3y ago
      I actually believe that Israelis would be quite delighted by a peaceful, prosperous neighbor. If they could trust Palestinians not to murder them in their sleep, they would even be fine with Palestinian citizens. That last is an asterisk, but I do not think Israelis in general feel an ongoing malevolent hostility towards Palestinians. I think mostly they would like them to chill tf out.
      - HDThoreaun 3y ago
        Many of them absolutely would, the question is how do we get to a place where they can trust Palestinians to not murder them in their sleep? There's also the problem of the growing right wing Israelis who believe god gave them the entire levant and are unwilling to give up on that vision. This group is not the majority in Israel, but their birth rate is much, much higher, so they eventually will be. The current defense minister is in this group which is a huge problem as it eliminates palestinian incentive to negotiate in good faith since they know the current government will not settle for anything less than full control of the west bank.
        rendall 3y ago
        > the question is how do we get to a place where they can trust Palestinians to not murder them in their sleep? You'll know that I mean no snark when I say 'LOL'. After all of the emotionalism on this topic, it's so nice to finally meet someone who has a clear-eyed understanding of what's going on over there.
        rendall 3y ago
        But to answer your question about how to bring Palestinians where they could accept a 2 state. Hmm. It's going to be tough. Really tough. PSAs? Denazification campaigns? A real puppet government? How to mitigate outside influences like Hezbollah and Iran? Intractable. There must be a visible, palpable model for a better way that is easy for people to embrace. "Maybe I can't have all of Palestine for my people, but I can have a home and safety for those I love, and a good life."
  - rendall 3y ago
    > There's certainly more than a little projection at work in this insistence that the only way to establish a free sovereign state is to commit genocide against one group or another. I agree that it's not necessary to commit genocide to establish a sovereign state! In fact, it's getting in the way.
rendall 3y ago
Is it really a misunderstanding? Let us investigate! Perhaps you are right! First, tell me, cempaka, when a Palestian says "Free Palestine", what do you think they mean by that? What does Free mean there? Let's also just agree that "end the occupation" is a synonym for "Free Palestine". What does "end the occupation" actually mean? Like, what would the social and political organization of the region be when Palestine is finally "free"?
- rendall 3y ago
  Not sure why this was flagged. Explain.
- cempaka 3y ago
  Different people using the slogan have different intentions. Some want a two-state solution, some want a single secular state without all of the Israeli ethnostate garbage. I am sure there are also a handful of Islamists (99.99999% of them nowhere near American university campuses) who also want to kill all Jews, but their relatively small proportion speaks to why interpreting the slogans as inherently genocidal is, again, mistaken or dishonest.
  - rendall 3y ago
    > Different people using the slogan have different intentions Ok, so just to be clear, we want to investigate what Palestinians mean by the phrase, since they ultimately will determine what "free" means when Palestine is free. Does that make sense? Let us not muddy the waters with what American college students believe the phrase means. 99.9999% of American college students will be nowhere near Palestine when it is freed. Only Palestinian voices matter, here, agreed? So, it's your belief that Palestinians have a diverse opinion on the topic? Some want a 2-state solution, some want a 1-state secular democracy, and only a very tiny miniscule minority want an ethno-state with no Jews or other infidels? Is there any evidence that would change your mind on that, no matter how unlikely? Like, if I could wave a magic wand and present to you with incontrovertible evidence that actually the overwhelming majority of Palestinians want Jews entirely gone "from the river to the sea", what would that evidence look like? Would it look like poll results?

HDThoreaun 3y ago

"globalize the intifada" has to mean the genocide of Jews. How could it mean anything else? "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is at least up for debate, but any amount of thought would quickly lead to conclusion that the jews living in Israel would be genocided if that happened. There is no realistic scenario where palestinians and israelis live together in peace, any call for a one state solution necessarily includes the killing of the side that doesnt control the government.

rendall 3y ago
My theory is that when Westerners, especially Americans, hear "Free Palestine" what resonates is "Free Tibet", or Martin Luther King Jr intoning "Free at last!", or "Free South Africa". They imagine Free means sovereignty, independence, peace, freedom to pursue happiness. How can one not get behind that?? "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will enjoy peace, freedom, prosperity, tolerance, ease, high quality of life, individual autonomy, diversity!" It sounds wonderful!
cempaka 3y ago
There's certainly more than a little projection at work in this insistence that the only way to establish a free sovereign state is to commit genocide against one group or another.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  There's certainly more than a little naivety at work in this insistence that israelis and palestinians could somehow live together without killing each other. I think a two state solution is possible, but there is absolutely no chance of a one state solution that doesnt involve kicking out one of the two groups. This misunderstanding is the whole issue here, people calling for a one state solution have no vision of what the state would actually look like. "oh they'll just live together in peace and forget about their utter hatred of each other" is not a realistic vision
  - rendall 3y ago
    I actually believe that Israelis would be quite delighted by a peaceful, prosperous neighbor. If they could trust Palestinians not to murder them in their sleep, they would even be fine with Palestinian citizens. That last is an asterisk, but I do not think Israelis in general feel an ongoing malevolent hostility towards Palestinians. I think mostly they would like them to chill tf out.
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      Many of them absolutely would, the question is how do we get to a place where they can trust Palestinians to not murder them in their sleep? There's also the problem of the growing right wing Israelis who believe god gave them the entire levant and are unwilling to give up on that vision. This group is not the majority in Israel, but their birth rate is much, much higher, so they eventually will be. The current defense minister is in this group which is a huge problem as it eliminates palestinian incentive to negotiate in good faith since they know the current government will not settle for anything less than full control of the west bank.
      - rendall 3y ago
        > the question is how do we get to a place where they can trust Palestinians to not murder them in their sleep? You'll know that I mean no snark when I say 'LOL'. After all of the emotionalism on this topic, it's so nice to finally meet someone who has a clear-eyed understanding of what's going on over there.
        rendall 3y ago
        But to answer your question about how to bring Palestinians where they could accept a 2 state. Hmm. It's going to be tough. Really tough. PSAs? Denazification campaigns? A real puppet government? How to mitigate outside influences like Hezbollah and Iran? Intractable. There must be a visible, palpable model for a better way that is easy for people to embrace. "Maybe I can't have all of Palestine for my people, but I can have a home and safety for those I love, and a good life."
- rendall 3y ago
  > There's certainly more than a little projection at work in this insistence that the only way to establish a free sovereign state is to commit genocide against one group or another. I agree that it's not necessary to commit genocide to establish a sovereign state! In fact, it's getting in the way.

rendall 3y ago

Is it really a misunderstanding? Let us investigate! Perhaps you are right! First, tell me, cempaka, when a Palestian says "Free Palestine", what do you think they mean by that? What does Free mean there? Let's also just agree that "end the occupation" is a synonym for "Free Palestine". What does "end the occupation" actually mean? Like, what would the social and political organization of the region be when Palestine is finally "free"?

rendall 3y ago
Not sure why this was flagged. Explain.
cempaka 3y ago
Different people using the slogan have different intentions. Some want a two-state solution, some want a single secular state without all of the Israeli ethnostate garbage. I am sure there are also a handful of Islamists (99.99999% of them nowhere near American university campuses) who also want to kill all Jews, but their relatively small proportion speaks to why interpreting the slogans as inherently genocidal is, again, mistaken or dishonest.
- rendall 3y ago
  > Different people using the slogan have different intentions Ok, so just to be clear, we want to investigate what Palestinians mean by the phrase, since they ultimately will determine what "free" means when Palestine is free. Does that make sense? Let us not muddy the waters with what American college students believe the phrase means. 99.9999% of American college students will be nowhere near Palestine when it is freed. Only Palestinian voices matter, here, agreed? So, it's your belief that Palestinians have a diverse opinion on the topic? Some want a 2-state solution, some want a 1-state secular democracy, and only a very tiny miniscule minority want an ethno-state with no Jews or other infidels? Is there any evidence that would change your mind on that, no matter how unlikely? Like, if I could wave a magic wand and present to you with incontrovertible evidence that actually the overwhelming majority of Palestinians want Jews entirely gone "from the river to the sea", what would that evidence look like? Would it look like poll results?