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Lfp chemistry is not that innovative -- it's in use in homes for sure and I think also tesla uses them. Given the breathlessness of the article I expected sodi

Lfp chemistry is not that innovative -- it's in use in homes for sure and I think also tesla uses them. Given the breathlessness of the article I expected sodium batteries or something

Voultapher 3y ago
Wasn't there news recently that a big supplier started selling commercial sodium batteries? Found it https://northvolt.com/articles/northvolt-sodium-ion/ https://northvolt.com/articles/northvolt-sodium-ion/
conradev 3y ago
Better cell design and better chemistry both contribute to safety, and I think the Blade’s primary innovation here is their cell design
- hedora 3y ago
  From the wikipedia article, it's all about the form factor: > The space utilization of the battery pack is increased by over 50% compared to most conventional lithium iron phosphate block batteries. > BYD claims that, in the nail penetration test, the Blade Battery emitted no smoke or fire after being penetrated, and its surface temperature reached only 30 to 60 °C (86 to 140 °F). It is currently the only power battery in the world that can safely pass the test. Reducing volume by 33% and mostly eliminating fire risks are both huge wins, if true. Doing it in a standard form factor that can be reused across future vehicle platforms is an even bigger deal.
  - Animats 3y ago
    This is a lithium iron phosphate battery. Safer chemistry than lithium-ion, but heavier. There's a lot be said for lithium iron phosphate. Once we have millions of old, badly maintained electric cars on the road, it's better if they're not using a battery technology prone to fire. This is mostly a packaging and cooling innovation. Round cells are inefficient from a density standpoint, but the empty space between cylinders allows heat to escape. BYD's approach to electric cars in China is modest range and lots of charging stations. Average distance driven per day in the US is 60 km. Current BYD vehicles all have a range over 200km. Same niche as Chevrolet, or what Chevy used to be - a seller of basic transportation. It's a worry that, in the last few years, US manufacturers have gone way overboard on too much car per car, to the point that most American workers can't afford current vehicles.
    - ramesh31 3y ago
      >It's a worry that, in the last few years, US manufacturers have gone way overboard on too much car per car, to the point that most American workers can't afford current vehicles. Things like the Nissan Leaf have been widely available in the US for nearly a decade now, with battery sizes from 20-40kWh. There's a market for it, but it's niche. The reality is just that EVs will never truly become mainstream in the US until there's a >60kWh budget vehicle that sells out the door under $25k. The distances are simply too much for anything less to be viable for people outside of a major metro area.
      - lnsru 3y ago
        I share your opinion. Everything <60 kWh has no real winter range. 60 kWh battery brings me 150 miles in winter (Autobahn in Germany, not saving energy) since the regular battery shouldn’t be charged to 100% and discharged bellow 10%. That’s 2 days of commuting without charging for me.
        Tagbert 3y ago
        I believe that is one of the benefit of the LFP chemistry that it is not harmed by sustained charges to 100%. That should help offset the range downside sometimes listed for LFP batteries.
        uxp100 3y ago
        However, IIRC it has other problems in cold weather. With charging, I think? I know I’ve seen reports that regenerative braking is essentially completely disabled while the LFP batteries are cold.
        Turskarama 3y ago
        But if you charge every day (at home) you still wouldn't ever need to supercharge, so it's still enough range for 95% of driving.
        idontwantthis 3y ago
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  Article still called out chemistry.
jorvi 3y ago
> The space utilization of the battery pack is increased by over 50% compared to most conventional lithium iron phosphate block batteries. > BYD claims that, in the nail penetration test, the Blade Battery emitted no smoke or fire after being penetrated, and its surface temperature reached only 30 to 60 °C (86 to 140 °F). It is currently the only power battery in the world that can safely pass the test. > In addition, it successfully passed an extreme safety test that saw it being rolled over by a 46-tonne heavy-duty truck[citation needed]. > The Blade Battery also passed other extreme test conditions, such as being crushed, bent, being heated in a furnace to 300 °C (572 °F) and overcharged by 260%. None of these resulted in a fire or explosion. None of that sounds like big leaps of progress to you? More on-topic, I wonder if the battery is fully functional with that 260% overcharge. Could be interesting if you can tell the battery (controller) “yes I accept the 1% point extra wear, please enable overcharge mode” for a really long trip that won’t have charging stations.
- jerlam 3y ago
  > More on-topic, I wonder if the battery is fully functional with that 260% overcharge. Could be interesting if you can tell the battery (controller) “yes I accept the 1% point extra wear, please enable overcharge mode” for a really long trip that won’t have charging stations. Overcharge doesn't mean that the battery can store additional capacity beyond its design limits. It just means that the battery won't be damaged or catch on fire if you continue to put electricity in it after it is already full.
consumer451 3y ago
> Lfp chemistry is not that innovative The last of the patents on LFP expired last year. Up until then, the patent holders made a deal where Chinese companies could produce the cells, but not export them. So that appears to be the reason for so much investment in the space in recent times.
- tooltalk 3y ago
  >> The last of the patents on LFP expired last year. Up until then, the patent holders made a deal where Chinese companies could produce the cells, but not export them << China did negotiate a deal with a patent consortium in Suisse to license LFP royalty-free for all domestic use. But then I wonder what the point was, since all foreign battery makers/patent holders such as LG (NCM), Panasonic (NCA) were required to give up their IP Rights in order to acces China's NEV market, or China would have ignored their IP Rights anyway. >> So that appears to be the reason for so much investment in the space in recent times. << Sure, there has been some improvement, but LFP is still mostly limited to entry-level, low-range EVs. The recent rise of LFP is largely attributable to the various COVID related auto component shortages and price spike in battery raw materials past few years. The average price of lithium however plunged by some 80% since last November and once 400+GWh new production capacity come up in the US, I suspect that LFP won't be as competitive.
ramesh31 3y ago
>Lfp chemistry is not that innovative -- it's in use in homes for sure and I think also tesla uses them. Given the breathlessness of the article I expected sodium batteries or something Cell chemistry is just one part of the equation. Better (lighter) pack designs are equally important to increasing overall energy density, safety, and reliability.
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  TFA specifically called out chemistry.
sbierwagen 3y ago
Tesla uses LFP cells in cars as part of a requirement to use locally sourced materials at Giga Shanghai. Before opening a factory in China, Tesla only used NMC/NCA cells.
- tooltalk 3y ago
  >> Before opening a factory in China, Tesla only used NMC/NCA cells. << Tesla has been primarily working with Panasonic's NCA for over a decade now. LG's NCM was added only after 2020 for their Long Range models in China/EU.

Lfp chemistry is not that innovative -- it's in use in homes for sure and I think also tesla uses them. Given the breathlessness of the article I expected sodium batteries or something

Voultapher 3y ago

Wasn't there news recently that a big supplier started selling commercial sodium batteries? Found it https://northvolt.com/articles/northvolt-sodium-ion/ https://northvolt.com/articles/northvolt-sodium-ion/

conradev 3y ago

Better cell design and better chemistry both contribute to safety, and I think the Blade’s primary innovation here is their cell design

hedora 3y ago
From the wikipedia article, it's all about the form factor: > The space utilization of the battery pack is increased by over 50% compared to most conventional lithium iron phosphate block batteries. > BYD claims that, in the nail penetration test, the Blade Battery emitted no smoke or fire after being penetrated, and its surface temperature reached only 30 to 60 °C (86 to 140 °F). It is currently the only power battery in the world that can safely pass the test. Reducing volume by 33% and mostly eliminating fire risks are both huge wins, if true. Doing it in a standard form factor that can be reused across future vehicle platforms is an even bigger deal.
- Animats 3y ago
  This is a lithium iron phosphate battery. Safer chemistry than lithium-ion, but heavier. There's a lot be said for lithium iron phosphate. Once we have millions of old, badly maintained electric cars on the road, it's better if they're not using a battery technology prone to fire. This is mostly a packaging and cooling innovation. Round cells are inefficient from a density standpoint, but the empty space between cylinders allows heat to escape. BYD's approach to electric cars in China is modest range and lots of charging stations. Average distance driven per day in the US is 60 km. Current BYD vehicles all have a range over 200km. Same niche as Chevrolet, or what Chevy used to be - a seller of basic transportation. It's a worry that, in the last few years, US manufacturers have gone way overboard on too much car per car, to the point that most American workers can't afford current vehicles.
  - ramesh31 3y ago
    >It's a worry that, in the last few years, US manufacturers have gone way overboard on too much car per car, to the point that most American workers can't afford current vehicles. Things like the Nissan Leaf have been widely available in the US for nearly a decade now, with battery sizes from 20-40kWh. There's a market for it, but it's niche. The reality is just that EVs will never truly become mainstream in the US until there's a >60kWh budget vehicle that sells out the door under $25k. The distances are simply too much for anything less to be viable for people outside of a major metro area.
    - lnsru 3y ago
      I share your opinion. Everything <60 kWh has no real winter range. 60 kWh battery brings me 150 miles in winter (Autobahn in Germany, not saving energy) since the regular battery shouldn’t be charged to 100% and discharged bellow 10%. That’s 2 days of commuting without charging for me.
      - Tagbert 3y ago
        I believe that is one of the benefit of the LFP chemistry that it is not harmed by sustained charges to 100%. That should help offset the range downside sometimes listed for LFP batteries.
        uxp100 3y ago
        However, IIRC it has other problems in cold weather. With charging, I think? I know I’ve seen reports that regenerative braking is essentially completely disabled while the LFP batteries are cold.
      - Turskarama 3y ago
        But if you charge every day (at home) you still wouldn't ever need to supercharge, so it's still enough range for 95% of driving.
      - idontwantthis 3y ago
throwawaymaths 3y ago
Article still called out chemistry.

jorvi 3y ago

> The space utilization of the battery pack is increased by over 50% compared to most conventional lithium iron phosphate block batteries. > BYD claims that, in the nail penetration test, the Blade Battery emitted no smoke or fire after being penetrated, and its surface temperature reached only 30 to 60 °C (86 to 140 °F). It is currently the only power battery in the world that can safely pass the test. > In addition, it successfully passed an extreme safety test that saw it being rolled over by a 46-tonne heavy-duty truck[citation needed]. > The Blade Battery also passed other extreme test conditions, such as being crushed, bent, being heated in a furnace to 300 °C (572 °F) and overcharged by 260%. None of these resulted in a fire or explosion. None of that sounds like big leaps of progress to you? More on-topic, I wonder if the battery is fully functional with that 260% overcharge. Could be interesting if you can tell the battery (controller) “yes I accept the 1% point extra wear, please enable overcharge mode” for a really long trip that won’t have charging stations.

jerlam 3y ago
> More on-topic, I wonder if the battery is fully functional with that 260% overcharge. Could be interesting if you can tell the battery (controller) “yes I accept the 1% point extra wear, please enable overcharge mode” for a really long trip that won’t have charging stations. Overcharge doesn't mean that the battery can store additional capacity beyond its design limits. It just means that the battery won't be damaged or catch on fire if you continue to put electricity in it after it is already full.

consumer451 3y ago

> Lfp chemistry is not that innovative The last of the patents on LFP expired last year. Up until then, the patent holders made a deal where Chinese companies could produce the cells, but not export them. So that appears to be the reason for so much investment in the space in recent times.

tooltalk 3y ago
>> The last of the patents on LFP expired last year. Up until then, the patent holders made a deal where Chinese companies could produce the cells, but not export them << China did negotiate a deal with a patent consortium in Suisse to license LFP royalty-free for all domestic use. But then I wonder what the point was, since all foreign battery makers/patent holders such as LG (NCM), Panasonic (NCA) were required to give up their IP Rights in order to acces China's NEV market, or China would have ignored their IP Rights anyway. >> So that appears to be the reason for so much investment in the space in recent times. << Sure, there has been some improvement, but LFP is still mostly limited to entry-level, low-range EVs. The recent rise of LFP is largely attributable to the various COVID related auto component shortages and price spike in battery raw materials past few years. The average price of lithium however plunged by some 80% since last November and once 400+GWh new production capacity come up in the US, I suspect that LFP won't be as competitive.

ramesh31 3y ago

>Lfp chemistry is not that innovative -- it's in use in homes for sure and I think also tesla uses them. Given the breathlessness of the article I expected sodium batteries or something Cell chemistry is just one part of the equation. Better (lighter) pack designs are equally important to increasing overall energy density, safety, and reliability.

throwawaymaths 3y ago
TFA specifically called out chemistry.

sbierwagen 3y ago

Tesla uses LFP cells in cars as part of a requirement to use locally sourced materials at Giga Shanghai. Before opening a factory in China, Tesla only used NMC/NCA cells.

tooltalk 3y ago
>> Before opening a factory in China, Tesla only used NMC/NCA cells. << Tesla has been primarily working with Panasonic's NCA for over a decade now. LG's NCM was added only after 2020 for their Long Range models in China/EU.