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I used to work as a teacher in a kind of bootcamp. Over the years my my view on teaching has changed massively. I think there are only two generic things and th

I used to work as a teacher in a kind of bootcamp. Over the years my my view on teaching has changed massively. I think there are only two generic things and the rest is situation dependent. - There is just no way around the struggle. The students have to struggle. Your job is not to take the struggle away but to show them why it is worth struggling and instil the belief that they can do it. - The most important teaching skill is to level with them. Talk about how difficult it was for you to understand it, what helped you. Never put yourself above them. I honestly believe this is where most people fundamentally fail. Respect them. Don’t treat them like babies. Forced attendance is imo the worst symptom of this.

placebo 3y ago
Although there is no way around the struggle, there is a way around how the struggle is perceived and experienced. A good teacher shows the struggle is worth it, but I believe a great teacher makes the struggle something you enjoy doing, and not something you have to put up with so you can enjoy the compensation at some point in the future.
- justinclift 3y ago
  > I believe a great teacher makes the struggle something you enjoy doing What's a good example of this? :)
  - placebo 3y ago
    I think there are two main factors in doing this: The first is creating the passion for the subject matter by making it both fascinating and accessible and by that generating even more curiosity and motivation that I believe are innate in everyone. The second is never letting anyone feel that they are treading water (although this can be seen as a by-product of making things accessible). Even when babies learn how to walk (assuming a healthy and secure environment) they do not need (or would understand) any assurance that the struggle will be worth it. They go for the struggle because the instinct/motivation to explore is already there - it gives a sense of autonomy, of being in control, of making progress, of being involved, of being alive. But no need to make assumptions about what motivates babies - you can look at how people feel when playing games, solving puzzles etc. They don't see it as a struggle, it is something that is a joy to participate in, even though it might be very challenging. A great teacher is someone that makes learning a by-product of having fun. I believe this is possible for any subject, no matter how "difficult" or "boring".
    - justinclift 3y ago
      > A great teacher is someone that makes learning a by-product of having fun. No disagreement with any of what you're saying. But do you have any real life (adult) examples rather than just the equivalent of platitudes? :)
      - placebo 3y ago
        I see nothing wrong with platitudes if they are true :) I'm not sure what examples you're looking for or would find convincing. I can speak about my own experiences of learning new things, where the speed of what I learned were always proportional the how interesting and accessible the material was made to be. In the cases where it was made enjoyable, I usually had more than enough motivation and curiosity to dig deeper using new materials that were less fun to learn (but could have been made fun too). I can also speak of my experiences teaching young people with no knowledge about programming who had preconceptions about how boring and difficult it is, which illustrated the degree of how you teach something has an effect on the perception of struggling. I assume you have your own examples as well, but if you can offer a counterexample I'll reconsider my opinion :) There is another important thing I'd like to point out though. What makes something fun or accessible for one person is not always what will do it for another. Having to teach groups, and especially large groups of people will make it very challenging if not impossible to be the ideal teacher. I'm not judging anyone for not being to be an ideal teacher under these constraints. Just pointing out that this should be the objective - not saying it is always possible.
  - hackermailman 3y ago
    Flipped classroom style maybe. Lectures are prerecorded then you as a group struggle with the problem sets in class. A few schools have entire courses for learning the struggle like MITs freshman problem solving course for figuring out Puerto Rico's power grid problems you are given some small area to research yourself and bring that to your student meetings and struggle to a solution. https://terrascope.mit.edu/nextyear/ https://terrascope.mit.edu/nextyear/
    - justinclift 3y ago
      Thanks, that looks like a good approach. :)
      - placebo 3y ago
        Agree, seems like a good example. I also understand what you meant by an example :) Sorry for the misunderstanding...
        justinclift 3y ago
        No worries at all. :)
sethammons 3y ago
> Forced attendance is imo the worst symptom of this I taught in an inner city title one school. While it would have made teaching those who showed up easier, I'd bet that over half the students would not show up without forced attendance. We had under 2% of students who would go on to graduate a four year college and something like an 80% transitory rate (meaning 20% would complete all four years at the school - this might have been up to 95% transitory, it has been a while since I was there). Gangs, violence, and poverty and no examples of school helping anyone in their lives. What do you do with kids in that kind of situation?
- lysecret 3y ago
  Oh, first of all, I truly respect this kind of teaching work. My only experience is in graduate or post-graduate level teaching. So really don't what is ideal in your situation.
  - sethammons 3y ago
    fwiw I've never heard of forced attendance post secondary; attendance is a legal requirement in k-12.
    - nerdponx 3y ago
      Some classes have an attendance requirement, but usually that's set by the department or the individual instructor.
    - Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
      In Spain it became common after the last university reform, about 15 years ago. IMO it's counterproductive. If a student doesn't want to go to class and you force them, they probably won't be paying attention but just wasting time with social networks or whatever other distraction, and they can even distract those that want to attend. And I don't even feel morally justified to tell them to stop wasting time (as long as they're silent, at least) if they're forced to be there.
jskherman 3y ago
Seconded. On this, I think the book "A Mind for Numbers" by Barbara Oakley summed up the lessons when it comes to learning the best. The effort/struggle to learn a topic is a signal to the brain that this particular information is salient and worth remembering; like some sort of feedback/anchor. People more should reframe and be thinking on how should they approach a subject to make getting to "the click" and understanding faster (not necessarily easier).
atomicnature 3y ago
Your first point is the truth, although I've found that there are very few takers for this truth :) In HN itself, I've argued with people numerous times on how challenge is a necessity for advancing in learning, but I've met with stiff resistance to this point often. So just want to say, glad to see a practicing teacher state the obvious (to practicing teachers) in HN.
LouisSayers 3y ago
> The students have to struggle Perhaps it's just the wording, but I really disagree here. Yes, there's a natural stress process we go through while learning where our boundaries are expanded, but to struggle... it's often a sign of bad teaching. I say this as a best selling Udemy instructor and having been a university CS tutor. Your job IS to take away the struggle. You do this by being the student, leading them to confusing situations and then overcoming that situation with them in a series of steps that are built up over time, and then having them apply that knowledge to build skill. The thing is, that teaching a subject well takes a lot of time and effort. There are very few really great teachers out there.
- nerdponx 3y ago
  Maybe a better word is "toil", or just "hard work". No matter how good the teacher is, there's almost no student in the world that can learn effectively without actually putting in the effort of working through problems on their own. The best teachers and curricula are the ones that dose out the hard work to maximize learning.
- dkqmduems 3y ago
  Few good teachers...few good engineers? 10x cough cough...

placebo 3y ago

Although there is no way around the struggle, there is a way around how the struggle is perceived and experienced. A good teacher shows the struggle is worth it, but I believe a great teacher makes the struggle something you enjoy doing, and not something you have to put up with so you can enjoy the compensation at some point in the future.

justinclift 3y ago
> I believe a great teacher makes the struggle something you enjoy doing What's a good example of this? :)
- placebo 3y ago
  I think there are two main factors in doing this: The first is creating the passion for the subject matter by making it both fascinating and accessible and by that generating even more curiosity and motivation that I believe are innate in everyone. The second is never letting anyone feel that they are treading water (although this can be seen as a by-product of making things accessible). Even when babies learn how to walk (assuming a healthy and secure environment) they do not need (or would understand) any assurance that the struggle will be worth it. They go for the struggle because the instinct/motivation to explore is already there - it gives a sense of autonomy, of being in control, of making progress, of being involved, of being alive. But no need to make assumptions about what motivates babies - you can look at how people feel when playing games, solving puzzles etc. They don't see it as a struggle, it is something that is a joy to participate in, even though it might be very challenging. A great teacher is someone that makes learning a by-product of having fun. I believe this is possible for any subject, no matter how "difficult" or "boring".
  - justinclift 3y ago
    > A great teacher is someone that makes learning a by-product of having fun. No disagreement with any of what you're saying. But do you have any real life (adult) examples rather than just the equivalent of platitudes? :)
    - placebo 3y ago
      I see nothing wrong with platitudes if they are true :) I'm not sure what examples you're looking for or would find convincing. I can speak about my own experiences of learning new things, where the speed of what I learned were always proportional the how interesting and accessible the material was made to be. In the cases where it was made enjoyable, I usually had more than enough motivation and curiosity to dig deeper using new materials that were less fun to learn (but could have been made fun too). I can also speak of my experiences teaching young people with no knowledge about programming who had preconceptions about how boring and difficult it is, which illustrated the degree of how you teach something has an effect on the perception of struggling. I assume you have your own examples as well, but if you can offer a counterexample I'll reconsider my opinion :) There is another important thing I'd like to point out though. What makes something fun or accessible for one person is not always what will do it for another. Having to teach groups, and especially large groups of people will make it very challenging if not impossible to be the ideal teacher. I'm not judging anyone for not being to be an ideal teacher under these constraints. Just pointing out that this should be the objective - not saying it is always possible.
- hackermailman 3y ago
  Flipped classroom style maybe. Lectures are prerecorded then you as a group struggle with the problem sets in class. A few schools have entire courses for learning the struggle like MITs freshman problem solving course for figuring out Puerto Rico's power grid problems you are given some small area to research yourself and bring that to your student meetings and struggle to a solution. https://terrascope.mit.edu/nextyear/ https://terrascope.mit.edu/nextyear/
  - justinclift 3y ago
    Thanks, that looks like a good approach. :)
    - placebo 3y ago
      Agree, seems like a good example. I also understand what you meant by an example :) Sorry for the misunderstanding...
      - justinclift 3y ago
        No worries at all. :)

sethammons 3y ago

> Forced attendance is imo the worst symptom of this I taught in an inner city title one school. While it would have made teaching those who showed up easier, I'd bet that over half the students would not show up without forced attendance. We had under 2% of students who would go on to graduate a four year college and something like an 80% transitory rate (meaning 20% would complete all four years at the school - this might have been up to 95% transitory, it has been a while since I was there). Gangs, violence, and poverty and no examples of school helping anyone in their lives. What do you do with kids in that kind of situation?

lysecret 3y ago
Oh, first of all, I truly respect this kind of teaching work. My only experience is in graduate or post-graduate level teaching. So really don't what is ideal in your situation.
- sethammons 3y ago
  fwiw I've never heard of forced attendance post secondary; attendance is a legal requirement in k-12.
  - nerdponx 3y ago
    Some classes have an attendance requirement, but usually that's set by the department or the individual instructor.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
    In Spain it became common after the last university reform, about 15 years ago. IMO it's counterproductive. If a student doesn't want to go to class and you force them, they probably won't be paying attention but just wasting time with social networks or whatever other distraction, and they can even distract those that want to attend. And I don't even feel morally justified to tell them to stop wasting time (as long as they're silent, at least) if they're forced to be there.

jskherman 3y ago

Seconded. On this, I think the book "A Mind for Numbers" by Barbara Oakley summed up the lessons when it comes to learning the best. The effort/struggle to learn a topic is a signal to the brain that this particular information is salient and worth remembering; like some sort of feedback/anchor. People more should reframe and be thinking on how should they approach a subject to make getting to "the click" and understanding faster (not necessarily easier).

atomicnature 3y ago

Your first point is the truth, although I've found that there are very few takers for this truth :) In HN itself, I've argued with people numerous times on how challenge is a necessity for advancing in learning, but I've met with stiff resistance to this point often. So just want to say, glad to see a practicing teacher state the obvious (to practicing teachers) in HN.

LouisSayers 3y ago

> The students have to struggle Perhaps it's just the wording, but I really disagree here. Yes, there's a natural stress process we go through while learning where our boundaries are expanded, but to struggle... it's often a sign of bad teaching. I say this as a best selling Udemy instructor and having been a university CS tutor. Your job IS to take away the struggle. You do this by being the student, leading them to confusing situations and then overcoming that situation with them in a series of steps that are built up over time, and then having them apply that knowledge to build skill. The thing is, that teaching a subject well takes a lot of time and effort. There are very few really great teachers out there.

nerdponx 3y ago
Maybe a better word is "toil", or just "hard work". No matter how good the teacher is, there's almost no student in the world that can learn effectively without actually putting in the effort of working through problems on their own. The best teachers and curricula are the ones that dose out the hard work to maximize learning.
dkqmduems 3y ago
Few good teachers...few good engineers? 10x cough cough...