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I don't understand why you wouldn't be interested in hiring someone who feels that software development "is just a job, but I do it well." And what is wrong wit

I don't understand why you wouldn't be interested in hiring someone who feels that software development "is just a job, but I do it well." And what is wrong with welding? What is it about programming that requires dedication beyond regular and predictable work hours? If the implication is that the 501'ers aren't thinking about what they do when they are not at work --they say they "...value personal creative projects over commercial products the world doesn't need." Certainly that is an abrasive way to phrase it, but it's clear that they are doing some level of development outside of their workday. This could cover keeping abreast of the state-of-the-art, certainly I feel that it is my responsibility to keep my skills competitive and up-to-date. You yourself prefer regular and predictable work hours, why shouldn't your software developers be able to enjoy these kinds of hours as well? The implication seems to be that people who work these kinds of schedules will be unwilling to work longer during a "crunch period." I don't see any reason to believe this is the case; I strive to work regular and predictable hours and I will put in extra time when warranted. I take full responsibility for my work and its effect on the company. I don't know what more any manager could ask of their employee and it's not clear where the 501'er is (in your estimation) falling short. Perhaps you believe that someone who strives for a regular and predictable schedule will be spending all of their time eyeballing the clock, perhaps even "gaming the system" to work as little as possible. For sure, such people exist, but I don't believe that there is any reason to assume a 501'er is one of these people. Again, I have to point out that you enjoy this kind of schedule yourself and you are clearly not spending all day "watching the clock." For that very reason, I find your objection to hiring a 501'er very puzzling. Lastly, as an aside, I wonder if the objection to the 501'er Manifesto boils down to this: the 501'er clearly values their personal life over their professional life. It seems to me much more difficult for a manager or business owner to baldly argue that their employees should value their work product more than their girlfriends, wives or families. Yet I can't help wondering if that isn't their true objection; that despite what they may say or do they are very much looking for people who are willing to live very unbalanced lives, lives that are unbalanced in favor of the workplace.

ericd 15y ago
Creative endeavors are not regular or predictable. Manual labor is. That's the difference, as writers and painters figured out a long time ago, but we seem to be struggling with. (For understandable reasons - it's often a team sport and not a solo one like those other two are)
- cmiles74 15y ago
  I understand that there's a continuum from art to craft, from something like the code for Lisp at one end and some generic RPG reporting code at the other. I understand that artists work on odd schedules and people that work billing software typically do not. Artists often have patrons who finance their art. I haven't seen much of this in software development. I'm not sure how artists or writers are treated in their respective workplaces, but is it the common case that they cannot expect to work regular or predictable hours? I know dedicated copywriters and graphic designers that tend to work schedules similar to my own, perhaps they are the exception to the rule. In most cases, I find the argument that software development is similar to art less than compelling. In my experience it is extremely rare to see software treated as art and even less so to see an software developer treated like an artist. In fact, I'm not sure what being "treated like an artist" would look like. Perhaps I have seen it and simply didn't recognize it for what it was: long and irregular hours, neglected private lives, exhaustion and burn-out.
  - ericd 15y ago
    I think you've got it in the last part. Basically, where someone throws themselves into creating something, rarely coming up for air. People often pay lip service to passion without ever explaining what they mean, but I think that's what it is - feeling driven to commit yourself wholly to working on something for periods of time, all else be damned, followed by rest periods where you're not creating much. As for the patrons, that's what a general release is for - to unveil it into the world and have the public shower patronage on you if they like it. I would say I tend to work on the artist schedule - fool around with things and do more communications-intensive tasks during the day, and at night after everyone's gone to sleep, 2-4 hour chunks of intense concentration in which I get more done than entire other days. I've never found a company that really let me do this, except one that let me come in late and get really productive after everyone's left. I've found it a much better fit.

ericd 15y ago

Creative endeavors are not regular or predictable. Manual labor is. That's the difference, as writers and painters figured out a long time ago, but we seem to be struggling with. (For understandable reasons - it's often a team sport and not a solo one like those other two are)

cmiles74 15y ago
I understand that there's a continuum from art to craft, from something like the code for Lisp at one end and some generic RPG reporting code at the other. I understand that artists work on odd schedules and people that work billing software typically do not. Artists often have patrons who finance their art. I haven't seen much of this in software development. I'm not sure how artists or writers are treated in their respective workplaces, but is it the common case that they cannot expect to work regular or predictable hours? I know dedicated copywriters and graphic designers that tend to work schedules similar to my own, perhaps they are the exception to the rule. In most cases, I find the argument that software development is similar to art less than compelling. In my experience it is extremely rare to see software treated as art and even less so to see an software developer treated like an artist. In fact, I'm not sure what being "treated like an artist" would look like. Perhaps I have seen it and simply didn't recognize it for what it was: long and irregular hours, neglected private lives, exhaustion and burn-out.
- ericd 15y ago
  I think you've got it in the last part. Basically, where someone throws themselves into creating something, rarely coming up for air. People often pay lip service to passion without ever explaining what they mean, but I think that's what it is - feeling driven to commit yourself wholly to working on something for periods of time, all else be damned, followed by rest periods where you're not creating much. As for the patrons, that's what a general release is for - to unveil it into the world and have the public shower patronage on you if they like it. I would say I tend to work on the artist schedule - fool around with things and do more communications-intensive tasks during the day, and at night after everyone's gone to sleep, 2-4 hour chunks of intense concentration in which I get more done than entire other days. I've never found a company that really let me do this, except one that let me come in late and get really productive after everyone's left. I've found it a much better fit.