5 ms·

Yeah, all the threads full of folks bashing on ZFS because their trusty ext won’t corrupt data should be eating crow right about now, but I’m sure they’ll hop i

Yeah, all the threads full of folks bashing on ZFS because their trusty ext won’t corrupt data should be eating crow right about now, but I’m sure they’ll hop in and explain why this bug is different.

megous 3y ago
It's not an extfs bug, it's a "stable kernel" process bug. Linux master branch/mainline was never affected by this bug. Someone cherry-picked a wrong patch into stable without realizing the consequences, and it was caught too late. Stable process is cherry pincking thousands to tens of thousands of patches from the current master kernel branch into years old kernel branches, spraying tens of thousands of emails at original patch authors, hoping (With some limited testing on top) that the resulting frankenkernels will still work and all these patches will have satisfied dependencies applied, too. I don't trust this process very much, and just run the latest stable branch for the latest kernel release, only. Staying with older stable release branch for too long seems too risky, unless you're some bigcorp that can afford the testing required, or you're running some highly mainstream setup that is probably covered by tests done by the stable team, and testing teams they cooperate with.
- uselpa 3y ago
  I understand your reasoning, but running a popular « stable » distro in a popular configuration will help detect bugs much faster. I’m not sure this would be the case for the very latest kernel.
  - megous 3y ago
    A bunch of popular distros run the latest kernel.
- keep_reading 3y ago
  Nobody ships vanilla kernels. Sure the reference implementation was unaffected but users never experience vanilla Linux kernels
  - dezgeg 3y ago
    Distros like Arch and NixOS use the vanilla kernel with very small amount (single digits) of patches on top. For the purposes of ext4, it's very likely to be as-is with vanilla. (I am counting the official linux-stable releases from kernel.org as 'vanilla' here.)
    - megous 3y ago
      Fedora, openSUSE tumbleweed, Manjaro,...
      - keep_reading 3y ago
        > Fedora You know it's not that hard to debunk this: > You'll then be left with a kernel-6.X.? directory, containing both an unpatched 'vanilla-6.X.?' dir, and a linux-6.X.?-noarch hardlinked dir which has the Fedora patches applied. [1] WOW fedora patches! Sounds to me like they're not shipping vanilla. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kernel https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kernel
        megous 3y ago
        That's not what my original argument was about. So not sure what you're debunking. I have problem with backaptching 10s of thousands of changes to years old kernels by people who don't really understand the changes or consequences, like 5.4, 5.15, 6.1 or whatever. Not patching up 6.6 or 6.7 kernel with a few out of tree patches, where they mostly understand what they're doing and can test the limited set of changes they're applying.
        keep_reading 3y ago
        If they change anything it's no longer vanilla. Anything at all. No matter how insignificant.
    - keep_reading 3y ago
      Even a single patch to something like default kernel config parameters means it's not vanilla. I'm not arguing that there are significant patches, only that nobody seems to ship a true vanilla kernel.
uxp8u61q 3y ago
This isn't a sports tournament, nobody is cheering or bashing "teams". If ZFS has bugs and caveats, they should be called out. Same for ext4.
- GauntletWizard 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - baz00 3y ago
    Well said. Twisted partisanism. I’m the middle ground. It all sucks in one way or another but we’re generally trying to our best.
  - reanimus 3y ago
    > When a core rust developer is exposed as a psychotic pedophile, there's crickets - it's not news because it happens every month. bro what on earth are you on about

megous 3y ago

It's not an extfs bug, it's a "stable kernel" process bug. Linux master branch/mainline was never affected by this bug. Someone cherry-picked a wrong patch into stable without realizing the consequences, and it was caught too late. Stable process is cherry pincking thousands to tens of thousands of patches from the current master kernel branch into years old kernel branches, spraying tens of thousands of emails at original patch authors, hoping (With some limited testing on top) that the resulting frankenkernels will still work and all these patches will have satisfied dependencies applied, too. I don't trust this process very much, and just run the latest stable branch for the latest kernel release, only. Staying with older stable release branch for too long seems too risky, unless you're some bigcorp that can afford the testing required, or you're running some highly mainstream setup that is probably covered by tests done by the stable team, and testing teams they cooperate with.

uselpa 3y ago
I understand your reasoning, but running a popular « stable » distro in a popular configuration will help detect bugs much faster. I’m not sure this would be the case for the very latest kernel.
- megous 3y ago
  A bunch of popular distros run the latest kernel.
keep_reading 3y ago
Nobody ships vanilla kernels. Sure the reference implementation was unaffected but users never experience vanilla Linux kernels
- dezgeg 3y ago
  Distros like Arch and NixOS use the vanilla kernel with very small amount (single digits) of patches on top. For the purposes of ext4, it's very likely to be as-is with vanilla. (I am counting the official linux-stable releases from kernel.org as 'vanilla' here.)
  - megous 3y ago
    Fedora, openSUSE tumbleweed, Manjaro,...
    - keep_reading 3y ago
      > Fedora You know it's not that hard to debunk this: > You'll then be left with a kernel-6.X.? directory, containing both an unpatched 'vanilla-6.X.?' dir, and a linux-6.X.?-noarch hardlinked dir which has the Fedora patches applied. [1] WOW fedora patches! Sounds to me like they're not shipping vanilla. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kernel https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kernel
      - megous 3y ago
        That's not what my original argument was about. So not sure what you're debunking. I have problem with backaptching 10s of thousands of changes to years old kernels by people who don't really understand the changes or consequences, like 5.4, 5.15, 6.1 or whatever. Not patching up 6.6 or 6.7 kernel with a few out of tree patches, where they mostly understand what they're doing and can test the limited set of changes they're applying.
        keep_reading 3y ago
        If they change anything it's no longer vanilla. Anything at all. No matter how insignificant.
  - keep_reading 3y ago
    Even a single patch to something like default kernel config parameters means it's not vanilla. I'm not arguing that there are significant patches, only that nobody seems to ship a true vanilla kernel.

uxp8u61q 3y ago

This isn't a sports tournament, nobody is cheering or bashing "teams". If ZFS has bugs and caveats, they should be called out. Same for ext4.

GauntletWizard 3y ago
[flagged]
- baz00 3y ago
  Well said. Twisted partisanism. I’m the middle ground. It all sucks in one way or another but we’re generally trying to our best.
- reanimus 3y ago
  > When a core rust developer is exposed as a psychotic pedophile, there's crickets - it's not news because it happens every month. bro what on earth are you on about