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Stop making sense! It would be useful if the readily mechanizable aspects of ATC-piloting and driving were done by machine but with human-in-the-loop. The fixa

Stop making sense! It would be useful if the readily mechanizable aspects of ATC-piloting and driving were done by machine but with human-in-the-loop. The fixations with completely human, manual processes and the leap to full automation are both too risky. There is plenty of middle-ground to derisk and remove points where human-error is mostly likely to occur. TCAS has been an excellent aid. Perhaps an automotive "TCAS" would also be useful.

toast0 3y ago
> Perhaps an automotive "TCAS" would also be useful. Forward Collision Warning systems and automatic emergency braking are becoming common in new cars. The problem and solution spaces are pretty different, so I don't think applying TCAS directly would be helpful --- I don't think there's a chance of cars having transponders anytime soon, and certainly deer, cyclists and pedestrians are unlikely to participate in an active transponder system, and there's no opportunity for cars to pull up or sink. At the same time, TCAS does not instruct to reduce or increase horizontal speed.
- mikrotikker 3y ago
  Automatic emergency braking is fucking horrifying tho... It has false positives and can be dangerous.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Is it more dangerous than people not braking because they are watching something on their phone?
    - mikrotikker 3y ago
      Depends I guess.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    I've only been in a car with two people who claim to get a lot of false positives on their AEB system while driving. Every time I saw a "false positive" it was almost always because they were driving very unsafely, trying to weave through heavy traffic at high speeds, approaching cars extremely rapidly and attempting to leave no room. In other words, not really false just not what the highly unsafe driver was wanting. Meanwhile across many thousands of miles and a few different makes of AEB I've never once encountered an actual false positive. Every engagement has been pretty reasonable to me.
    - toast0 3y ago
      My one car with AEB has been pretty good with activations at speed, sometimes activating for a situation which wasn't really needed, but always understandable. The trickiest one is when a car in front is leaving the lane and slowing, but I wouldn't call that a false positive --- it's not stopping out of the blue or for a falling (tree) leaf; it detected the scenario properly, but not the nuance. At parking speeds though, it would regularly emergency brake to save bushy flowers encroaching into the driveway, or one, it tried to save a driveway from being backed into (there was some weird pavement angle).
    - mikrotikker 3y ago
      Nah my feet work and so do my eyes. I have had small accidents in the past and learned from them. I understand for people who don't learn or can't judge speed and need a crutch, but perhaps it's better they don't drive at all.
      - vel0city 3y ago
        > I have had small accidents in the past and learned from them. Maybe if you had AEB and FCW you wouldn't have had those accidents in the first place. Or did you not have working feet and eyes at the time and only recently got those installed? You even acknowledged you've had multiple collisions, did you not learn when getting your license? Did you not learn on the first accident? How many collisions should be expected for people to learn? I'll be more clear. If your AEB is engaging while driving on the roads, you're probably driving unsafely. If you're worried about your AEB triggering often, you should probably adjust your driving because it's probably pretty unsafe. I'll grant there's probably a few models with twitchy AEB systems, but almost every overly sensitive AEB I've ever heard about is either a Tesla with phantom braking or overly sensitive in tight parking conditions, which once again shouldn't really be a safety problem as that should be low speed. And even then those are really only a few older models, anything made in the last several years seems pretty solid to me from the several cars I've driven with it.

toast0 3y ago

> Perhaps an automotive "TCAS" would also be useful. Forward Collision Warning systems and automatic emergency braking are becoming common in new cars. The problem and solution spaces are pretty different, so I don't think applying TCAS directly would be helpful --- I don't think there's a chance of cars having transponders anytime soon, and certainly deer, cyclists and pedestrians are unlikely to participate in an active transponder system, and there's no opportunity for cars to pull up or sink. At the same time, TCAS does not instruct to reduce or increase horizontal speed.

mikrotikker 3y ago
Automatic emergency braking is fucking horrifying tho... It has false positives and can be dangerous.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Is it more dangerous than people not braking because they are watching something on their phone?
  - mikrotikker 3y ago
    Depends I guess.
- vel0city 3y ago
  I've only been in a car with two people who claim to get a lot of false positives on their AEB system while driving. Every time I saw a "false positive" it was almost always because they were driving very unsafely, trying to weave through heavy traffic at high speeds, approaching cars extremely rapidly and attempting to leave no room. In other words, not really false just not what the highly unsafe driver was wanting. Meanwhile across many thousands of miles and a few different makes of AEB I've never once encountered an actual false positive. Every engagement has been pretty reasonable to me.
  - toast0 3y ago
    My one car with AEB has been pretty good with activations at speed, sometimes activating for a situation which wasn't really needed, but always understandable. The trickiest one is when a car in front is leaving the lane and slowing, but I wouldn't call that a false positive --- it's not stopping out of the blue or for a falling (tree) leaf; it detected the scenario properly, but not the nuance. At parking speeds though, it would regularly emergency brake to save bushy flowers encroaching into the driveway, or one, it tried to save a driveway from being backed into (there was some weird pavement angle).
  - mikrotikker 3y ago
    Nah my feet work and so do my eyes. I have had small accidents in the past and learned from them. I understand for people who don't learn or can't judge speed and need a crutch, but perhaps it's better they don't drive at all.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      > I have had small accidents in the past and learned from them. Maybe if you had AEB and FCW you wouldn't have had those accidents in the first place. Or did you not have working feet and eyes at the time and only recently got those installed? You even acknowledged you've had multiple collisions, did you not learn when getting your license? Did you not learn on the first accident? How many collisions should be expected for people to learn? I'll be more clear. If your AEB is engaging while driving on the roads, you're probably driving unsafely. If you're worried about your AEB triggering often, you should probably adjust your driving because it's probably pretty unsafe. I'll grant there's probably a few models with twitchy AEB systems, but almost every overly sensitive AEB I've ever heard about is either a Tesla with phantom braking or overly sensitive in tight parking conditions, which once again shouldn't really be a safety problem as that should be low speed. And even then those are really only a few older models, anything made in the last several years seems pretty solid to me from the several cars I've driven with it.