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Own Consciousness Can Interact with the Universe, Scientists Believe
- davidwritesbugs 3y agoThe problem with these stories is they end up with Gwyneth Paltrow and other wellness grifters selling a magic quantum consciousness powder.
- anon291 3y agoConsciousness being quantum would at least explain qualia. It would be easy to say feeling is simply a new quantum field unbeknownst to us instead of an (as of yet unexplained) emergent property of the currently known fields and their fluctuations.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoWe haven't come to an agreement on the meaning or interpretation of quantum effects, so I'm not sure it would explain much at this stage of physics.
- robwwilliams 3y agoAnd many doubts about qualia. A mystery if you insist, but to someone like Dennett it is not a conundrum worth anymore than the concept of ether is in modern physics.
- colanderman 3y agoI don't buy it. Quantum fields aren't magical, they follow rules the same as EM fields and chemical interactions. If N physical domains aren't sufficient to explain qualia, how will N+1 change things?
- hnfong 3y agoMake the science complicated enough that it could be confused for another complicated thing that we don’t fully understand.
- anon291 3y agoIf the new field is the one that creates feeling than it would indeed be a better explanation. To prove this, you would have to create a physical process that could excite the 'feeling field', use that process to create a region of non zero charge in the feeling field and then determine if humans placed in this area of elevated feeling charge felt different. If they did, then that's proof of some kind of feeling charge. As for the 'why would n+1 explain it'.. it's the same reason we invented the strong force... To explain things that cannot be explained. Qualia is inexplicable, thus it would seem to be a straightforwards application of the same principle
- colanderman 3y agoWe can already induce various feelings and qualia through the use of chemicals (drugs) and EM fields (tDCS). There's no evidence or proof that these physical domains are insufficient to explain qualia. Likewise, demonstrating that feelings and qualia can be induced via quantum interactions doesn't reveal anything deeper about their nature than does the fact that we can induce happiness or hallucinations with drugs.
- anon291 3y ago> There's no evidence or proof that these physical domains are insufficient to explain qualia Law of excluded middle does not apply in general, only in certain systems. The real world is not one of them. There is also no evidence that physical domains are sufficient to explain qualia. To do that you would have to show that you can make an inanimate / non-living object feel something. Qualia has a very different sensation than simple observation. Do you claim, for example, that a Camera feels red? How? Why? This is a very valid question, for which we have no physical explanation.
- mewpmewp2 3y agoHow would that explain that?
- anon291 3y agoIt would make feeling an intrinsic property of the universe rather than an emergent phenomenon.
- taberiand 3y agoWhy are these scientists so desperate for a Magical Quantum Solution to consciousness? Shouldn't they first disprove the much more likely hypothesis that consciousness is an emergent property of the (macro level) structure and operation of the brain?
- mensetmanusman 3y agoPeople realized long ago you can't wave around the word 'emergent' to solve this problem.
- anonzzzies 3y agoEmergent can be the first step; something emerges. Then you have to explain why/how. Emergent alone is never enough but it’s the first step. Consciousness is emergent until we explain how it comes to be and then it’s just an understood process.
- taberiand 3y agoOh really? Who, and when - and with what proof?
- mensetmanusman 3y agoI'm just referencing the existing debates on the topic. It doesn't appear we are at a stage to prove or disprove subjective experience. One hint we will know our understanding is solved is when others can enter the plane of our mind and add or subject imaginative objects.
- BeautifulSynch 3y agoScientists are people too. These efforts have always struck me as a desperate attempt to cling to conventionally intuitive views of what humanity and sapience actually means, in the face of physical laws which don't seem to treat "personhood" as anything special (aside from the "observer-interaction" of quantum physics, which some claim involves impact on the universe being observed rather than just what parts of reality the sensor/observer can perceive). EDIT: Though to be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if neurons just so happen to use quantum decoherence in their computations. I just don't think it has any relevance to the macro-level phenomenon we call "consciousness".
- JieJie 3y agoI want this to be true way too much for it to really be true.
- mewpmewp2 3y agoWhy?
- JieJie 3y agoI reckon that if consciousness is a quantum process happening at room temperature, it can probably be replicated in other systems at room temperature. The popular science that has been coming out about the origins of consciousness has been really interesting to follow. Quantum nanotubules seems a dark horse in the lineup against the frontrunners, Integrated Information Theory and Global Workspace Theory. When I was in high school, I was always very interested in the history of science and how scientific advances played out over time, quite dramatically. In my lifetime, I've had the pleasure to watch quite a few of them play out in such a fashion. There seem to be multiple big ones looming large on the horizon these days, the origins of consciousness among them. I suppose I'm rooting for Penrose, because he has a lot riding on this and he seems like a genuinely brilliant person. Maybe I'm a romantic? Thanks for asking.
- akomtu 3y agoThose microtubules don't necessarily contain consciousness. They may as well be antennas that connect consciousness with the brain.
- Madmallard 3y agoEverything everyone does interacts with the universe… Certainly what you think about alters what you will then do in the future so even thought is not isolated from reality.
- Terr_ 3y agoHighly relevant webcomic: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-talk-3 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-talk-3 (Particularly the last three panels.)
- derpiederpie 3y ago[flagged]