6 ms·

Firefox keeps competing on the wrong things. See ARC browser. It's developed by a minuscule team but what they do is turn the experience of browsing the web in

Firefox keeps competing on the wrong things. See ARC browser. It's developed by a minuscule team but what they do is turn the experience of browsing the web into pure smooth pleasure. They will never in a million years gather enough talent to outcompete the V8 engine, but what they can do is develop better user workflows to empower them. Firefox could be such a workhorse of a browser. They could add so many features to make the lives of academics, researchers, journalists and professionals in general better. Who cares if it's a bit slower than Chrome if it allows to efficently write my article or keep together the sources for my thesis?

yardstick 3y ago
I like the plugin approach for this. I don’t have a need to efficiently write an article in a browser - or code within a browser which is more my thing. I have a dedicated IDE for that, and leave browsing to browsing. Browsers imo should just be browsers and leave the end user applications to the web app developers, plugin developers, etc. So in that sense I’m happy with where they are, and very happy they are doing their own stuff rather than being another Chrome-based browser.
- Almondsetat 3y ago
  Plugins are terrible though. If I truly want vertical tabs Edge allows me to use them. Firefox? Need a third party plugin that adds the vertical tabs but cannot remove the horizontal ones on top, creating an ugly and wasteful freak. Also I didn't say I should write in the browser, I said the browser should let me collect information from the internet in such a way to make my job easier
  - jwells89 3y ago
    Firefox also doesn’t let you hide the gigantic sidebar header without usercss hacks.
    - soraminazuki 3y ago
      How can Firefox possibly improve if every solution gets labeled a hack?
      - jwells89 3y ago
        I’m not sure I follow? The clear improvement here is to add a checkbox representing a supported option to hide that header. Hiding it in usercss isn’t supported and is liable to disappear at any point (say, the developers decide they’re tired of maintaining some part of the code that makes the custom usercss flag work). It serves the purpose for now, but cannot be relied upon in the long term and as such is a hack.
        BeautifulSynch 3y ago
        Not a Firefox user, but this feels like a culture gap. I use multiple applications where configurability through user-code is part of the SLA, and dropping support would be as utterly unacceptable as, say, dropping the toolbar. Considering the contrast Mozilla is trying to make with Chrome's more restrictive and non-user-conscious nature I see no reason they wouldn't share that same philosophy. Unless there's something I'm missing re: Mozilla's history/market-positioning?
        jwells89 3y ago
        In the past they’ve not hesitated to reduce customizability when doing so was perceived to bring some benefit to ease of development. Aside from that I just think it’s a good idea to push for implementation of basic functionality like hiding bars that don’t pair nicely with popular vertical tab extensions. I shouldn’t need to resort to usercss mods to do something that simple.
  - drtgh 3y ago
    Just in case you do not know, or you are interested, the Firefox's UI is mere CSS, one can customize it through "chrome/userChrome.css" in the profile folder of the user. I put for example my tabs under the bookmarks, just above the page content (As FF used to be at past), with the template from the CustomCSSforFx[1] project, and modified some colors and icons. Firefox have also the "Browser Toolbox"[2], homologous to the web development tools, that one can use for to explore the css of the UI, select elements, etc, and modify them for to see how would look the modifications before to put them within the userChrome.css The tabs I think that are under the id=TabsToolbar, so an #TabsToolbar{ display: none !important; } or similar should work, in addition to correct with other css params the space that it leaves. Note: What happens is they change things from time to time, and after an update one have to correct the css again, I warn. [1] https://github.com/Aris-t2/CustomCSSforFx https://github.com/Aris-t2/CustomCSSforFx [2] https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/devtools-user/browser_toolbox/index.html https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/devtools-user/browse...
- bastawhiz 3y ago
  > Browsers imo should just be browsers and leave the end user applications to the web app developers, plugin developers, etc. The problem here, though, is that the core browser becomes the lowest common denominator. When I set up a computer, I don't want to have to spend all day getting my browser into a usable state. I don't want to have to recommend Firefox with the asterisk that you need half a dozen plugins to make it good. I don't want to wake up and find that the tab management plugin I like has been bought out by a sketchy company that's now using my browser as a proxy server for scrapers. And having a browser that's not minimalist is known to work. We have tabs today, for instance, because of the fine folks at Opera pushing the boundaries of what the browser can be. Not every browser needs every feature, but some things are just good quality of life improvements that plugins should be able to disable (versus requiring plugins to add all nonessential features).
  - Kinrany 3y ago
    > When I set up a computer, I don't want to have to spend all day getting my browser into a usable state. I don't want to have to recommend Firefox with the asterisk that you need half a dozen plugins to make it good. You want a browser that can preload plugins on install with a config.
    - bastawhiz 3y ago
      No, I don't. I don't want my browser to be cobbled together from plugins that may or may not work well together. I've played enough modded video games to know that this is hell. I want it to work because it was created and tested by a single person and not a dozen independent people stepping on each other's toes.
      - cycomanic 3y ago
        Well I guess you have to write your own browser then, because I'm quite certain that the configurations that you like are not the same as mine. It's also funny how you bring up innovation. The thing is plugins enable much more innovation because a plugin can be made by a single person with a great idea and relatively little knowledge. Just imagine everyone who wanted to try out some innovative new feature would have to build their own browser first.
kageiit 3y ago
Huge fan of the Arc browser. The UX is really smooth and intuitive. It also declutters UI and provides some nice hints. I usually go to the url box to copy the url. one day, it suggested me to use a keyboard shortcut instead based on how often I did it. Little things like this that are built-in to the experience without having to install plugins and make sure they work together is a breath of fresh air.
kshahkshah 3y ago
Very insightful. I think people would, maybe, argue that a lot of the features in these niche browsers are actually plugins in disguise. Thoughts? I think the issue with plugins is people don't actually use them save ad blockers.
The_Colonel 3y ago
> They could add so many features to make the lives of academics, researchers, journalists and professionals in general better. Who cares if it's a bit slower than Chrome if it allows to efficently write my article or keep together the sources for my thesis? They don't want to settle for a niche for academics, their mission is to be a popular mainstream browser (even if they're failing at that ATM).
- Almondsetat 3y ago
  Why did you only extrapolate 1 category off the list?
agumonkey 3y ago
I second this. I hope ffx team get some inspiration.
autoexec 3y ago
I think firefox focusing on performance, customization, and security/privacy is smart. Being the browser for tech savvy people is a great niche that sets it apart from others. Performance has always been a metric that drove people to/away from browsers (at least for those of us who know what browsers are, know that alternatives exist, and are willing to try them). Add-ons can provide whatever weird workflow empowering gimmicks people want to set up for themselves rather than being limited to what the browser itself provides. Every OS I've used a browser on provides things like note/screenshot taking, and not everyone wants vertical tabs, ARC doesn't give you any choice. It's ARC's way or nothing. Firefox is still the browser that gives people the most control over how they work. Firefox truly empowers users.
- avazhi 3y ago
  First, FF is less secure than Chromium-based browsers so not sure what you meant there. Just have a look at the results of the various browser hacking competitions. This has been a consistent result for decades. FF security out of the box has also been inferior to Chrome’s. In some cases it’s been more readily exploited than Safari, which is saying something. And as for customisation, that’s actually been eroded over the past 3-5 years in FF compared to, say, 10 or 15 years ago. For example, I can remember a time when the interface itself had the option (a checkbox) that miniaturised the icons of the entire search bar UI - this has been gone for years and there is now no way to change that without installing an entire theme. Now every user is stuck with the same general interface/UI spacing. I’ve used FF since maybe 2008 and in my experience it’s never been worse than it is now in terms of performance, its interface customisability, and its benefits vs its largest competitor. If I end up using it as my primary browser it will be because of Google’s insanity with adblockers, not because FF itself is a good alternative (indeed it’s just that FF is the ONLY alternative).
  - autoexec 3y ago
    > FF security out of the box has also been inferior to Chrome’s. Privacy with Firefox out of the box isn't that much better than Chrome’s either, but what sets Firefox apart is that it can be very effectively hardened. At work I deal with all kinds of compromised and malicious websites and nothing beats Firefox once you've got it locked down. > I’ve used FF since maybe 2008 and in my experience it’s never been worse than it is now in terms of performance, its interface customisability, and its benefits vs its largest competitor. It's gotten more difficult to customize firefox over the years for sure, but what competitor offers better interface customizability? What can you customize in Chrome that you can't in firefox? What's chrome's equivalent to userChrome.css? Check out https://old.reddit.com/r/FirefoxCSS/ https://old.reddit.com/r/FirefoxCSS/ for examples of what you can accomplish.

yardstick 3y ago

I like the plugin approach for this. I don’t have a need to efficiently write an article in a browser - or code within a browser which is more my thing. I have a dedicated IDE for that, and leave browsing to browsing. Browsers imo should just be browsers and leave the end user applications to the web app developers, plugin developers, etc. So in that sense I’m happy with where they are, and very happy they are doing their own stuff rather than being another Chrome-based browser.

Almondsetat 3y ago
Plugins are terrible though. If I truly want vertical tabs Edge allows me to use them. Firefox? Need a third party plugin that adds the vertical tabs but cannot remove the horizontal ones on top, creating an ugly and wasteful freak. Also I didn't say I should write in the browser, I said the browser should let me collect information from the internet in such a way to make my job easier
- jwells89 3y ago
  Firefox also doesn’t let you hide the gigantic sidebar header without usercss hacks.
  - soraminazuki 3y ago
    How can Firefox possibly improve if every solution gets labeled a hack?
    - jwells89 3y ago
      I’m not sure I follow? The clear improvement here is to add a checkbox representing a supported option to hide that header. Hiding it in usercss isn’t supported and is liable to disappear at any point (say, the developers decide they’re tired of maintaining some part of the code that makes the custom usercss flag work). It serves the purpose for now, but cannot be relied upon in the long term and as such is a hack.
      - BeautifulSynch 3y ago
        Not a Firefox user, but this feels like a culture gap. I use multiple applications where configurability through user-code is part of the SLA, and dropping support would be as utterly unacceptable as, say, dropping the toolbar. Considering the contrast Mozilla is trying to make with Chrome's more restrictive and non-user-conscious nature I see no reason they wouldn't share that same philosophy. Unless there's something I'm missing re: Mozilla's history/market-positioning?
        jwells89 3y ago
        In the past they’ve not hesitated to reduce customizability when doing so was perceived to bring some benefit to ease of development. Aside from that I just think it’s a good idea to push for implementation of basic functionality like hiding bars that don’t pair nicely with popular vertical tab extensions. I shouldn’t need to resort to usercss mods to do something that simple.
- drtgh 3y ago
  Just in case you do not know, or you are interested, the Firefox's UI is mere CSS, one can customize it through "chrome/userChrome.css" in the profile folder of the user. I put for example my tabs under the bookmarks, just above the page content (As FF used to be at past), with the template from the CustomCSSforFx[1] project, and modified some colors and icons. Firefox have also the "Browser Toolbox"[2], homologous to the web development tools, that one can use for to explore the css of the UI, select elements, etc, and modify them for to see how would look the modifications before to put them within the userChrome.css The tabs I think that are under the id=TabsToolbar, so an #TabsToolbar{ display: none !important; } or similar should work, in addition to correct with other css params the space that it leaves. Note: What happens is they change things from time to time, and after an update one have to correct the css again, I warn. [1] https://github.com/Aris-t2/CustomCSSforFx https://github.com/Aris-t2/CustomCSSforFx [2] https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/devtools-user/browser_toolbox/index.html https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/devtools-user/browse...
bastawhiz 3y ago
> Browsers imo should just be browsers and leave the end user applications to the web app developers, plugin developers, etc. The problem here, though, is that the core browser becomes the lowest common denominator. When I set up a computer, I don't want to have to spend all day getting my browser into a usable state. I don't want to have to recommend Firefox with the asterisk that you need half a dozen plugins to make it good. I don't want to wake up and find that the tab management plugin I like has been bought out by a sketchy company that's now using my browser as a proxy server for scrapers. And having a browser that's not minimalist is known to work. We have tabs today, for instance, because of the fine folks at Opera pushing the boundaries of what the browser can be. Not every browser needs every feature, but some things are just good quality of life improvements that plugins should be able to disable (versus requiring plugins to add all nonessential features).
- Kinrany 3y ago
  > When I set up a computer, I don't want to have to spend all day getting my browser into a usable state. I don't want to have to recommend Firefox with the asterisk that you need half a dozen plugins to make it good. You want a browser that can preload plugins on install with a config.
  - bastawhiz 3y ago
    No, I don't. I don't want my browser to be cobbled together from plugins that may or may not work well together. I've played enough modded video games to know that this is hell. I want it to work because it was created and tested by a single person and not a dozen independent people stepping on each other's toes.
    - cycomanic 3y ago
      Well I guess you have to write your own browser then, because I'm quite certain that the configurations that you like are not the same as mine. It's also funny how you bring up innovation. The thing is plugins enable much more innovation because a plugin can be made by a single person with a great idea and relatively little knowledge. Just imagine everyone who wanted to try out some innovative new feature would have to build their own browser first.

kageiit 3y ago

Huge fan of the Arc browser. The UX is really smooth and intuitive. It also declutters UI and provides some nice hints. I usually go to the url box to copy the url. one day, it suggested me to use a keyboard shortcut instead based on how often I did it. Little things like this that are built-in to the experience without having to install plugins and make sure they work together is a breath of fresh air.

kshahkshah 3y ago

Very insightful. I think people would, maybe, argue that a lot of the features in these niche browsers are actually plugins in disguise. Thoughts? I think the issue with plugins is people don't actually use them save ad blockers.

The_Colonel 3y ago

> They could add so many features to make the lives of academics, researchers, journalists and professionals in general better. Who cares if it's a bit slower than Chrome if it allows to efficently write my article or keep together the sources for my thesis? They don't want to settle for a niche for academics, their mission is to be a popular mainstream browser (even if they're failing at that ATM).

Almondsetat 3y ago
Why did you only extrapolate 1 category off the list?

agumonkey 3y ago

I second this. I hope ffx team get some inspiration.

autoexec 3y ago

I think firefox focusing on performance, customization, and security/privacy is smart. Being the browser for tech savvy people is a great niche that sets it apart from others. Performance has always been a metric that drove people to/away from browsers (at least for those of us who know what browsers are, know that alternatives exist, and are willing to try them). Add-ons can provide whatever weird workflow empowering gimmicks people want to set up for themselves rather than being limited to what the browser itself provides. Every OS I've used a browser on provides things like note/screenshot taking, and not everyone wants vertical tabs, ARC doesn't give you any choice. It's ARC's way or nothing. Firefox is still the browser that gives people the most control over how they work. Firefox truly empowers users.

avazhi 3y ago
First, FF is less secure than Chromium-based browsers so not sure what you meant there. Just have a look at the results of the various browser hacking competitions. This has been a consistent result for decades. FF security out of the box has also been inferior to Chrome’s. In some cases it’s been more readily exploited than Safari, which is saying something. And as for customisation, that’s actually been eroded over the past 3-5 years in FF compared to, say, 10 or 15 years ago. For example, I can remember a time when the interface itself had the option (a checkbox) that miniaturised the icons of the entire search bar UI - this has been gone for years and there is now no way to change that without installing an entire theme. Now every user is stuck with the same general interface/UI spacing. I’ve used FF since maybe 2008 and in my experience it’s never been worse than it is now in terms of performance, its interface customisability, and its benefits vs its largest competitor. If I end up using it as my primary browser it will be because of Google’s insanity with adblockers, not because FF itself is a good alternative (indeed it’s just that FF is the ONLY alternative).
- autoexec 3y ago
  > FF security out of the box has also been inferior to Chrome’s. Privacy with Firefox out of the box isn't that much better than Chrome’s either, but what sets Firefox apart is that it can be very effectively hardened. At work I deal with all kinds of compromised and malicious websites and nothing beats Firefox once you've got it locked down. > I’ve used FF since maybe 2008 and in my experience it’s never been worse than it is now in terms of performance, its interface customisability, and its benefits vs its largest competitor. It's gotten more difficult to customize firefox over the years for sure, but what competitor offers better interface customizability? What can you customize in Chrome that you can't in firefox? What's chrome's equivalent to userChrome.css? Check out https://old.reddit.com/r/FirefoxCSS/ https://old.reddit.com/r/FirefoxCSS/ for examples of what you can accomplish.