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I mean yeah, let's assume Russia believed really hard in globalism. The problem is if that's the case, Russia suddenly has many many more problems. They justif

I mean yeah, let's assume Russia believed really hard in globalism. The problem is if that's the case, Russia suddenly has many many more problems. They justified the invasion by claiming it will better the security situation of Russia. Now that the invasion has started, is the security situation of Russia any better? Ok, maybe the invasion didn't improve the security situation, but it would have if the West didn't meddle. They seem to have forgotten however, that the West has always been meddling in Ukraine, they literally had troops there previously. And also since Ukraine was US-aligned, wouldn't it make sense that the US would help them? But let's even assume the invasion went 100% to plan and Ukraine got completely annexed! Would the security situation of Russia be improved? NO, it would not! - Literally everybody in Europe would suddenly hate Russia - Neutral countries would no longer be neutral to Russia (as demonstrated recently) - The region is destabilized. No one was previously thinking of starting wars in Europe, now war is top of mind. - What does the "land buffer" even get them? No one would dare perform a ground invasion of Russia cause they have nukes! - If the nukes were gone, the "land buffer" would be inconsequential to the US army. The Russians somehow don't have air superiority even when Ukraine doesn't have an air force. They would be bombed out of key positions immediately with air and artillery power should the west invade. The "neutral buffer state" is a pipe-dream. One that is not actually a terrible idea (it's not a good idea mind you), but entirely unachievable.

xcv123 3y ago
Your reply is well thought out. The fact is that Ukraine was being turned against Russia. This was unacceptable to them and considered an existential risk, whether by direct or indirect force, by military or political/cultural subversion. This is evidenced by the huge risk and sacrifices that Russia has accepted with this course of action. They warned that this would happen as a consequence, for many years.
- mopsi 3y ago
  > The fact is that Ukraine was being turned against Russia. Funny. I thought it was the invasion in 2014 and the crimes against humanity committed by invading Russians that soured relations between Ukraine and Russia. Are Americans at fault for rising anti-German tensions in Poland back in 1939 too?
  - xcv123 3y ago
    The annexation of Crimea occurred immediately after the 2014 revolution. The west made their move and Russia responded.
    - mopsi 3y ago
      That's not how the events unfolded. Russians pressured Ukrainian president to block a very favorable trade deal with the EU that had already received overwhelming support and passed the parliament. The general public responded with massive protests, Ukrainian president mishandled the situation and gave order to shoot at protesters, protests grew even larger in response, and the president eventually fled to Russia. Russians used the time of internal turmoil as an opportunity to invade Crimea and Eastern Ukraine to further their interest of expanding Russia to the extent of the Soviet Union. You don't need to construct elaborate conspiracy theories about CIA involvement, when Ukrainians were mad as hell over losing the opportunity to see their income sharply rise from open trade with the EU, like everyone else in Eastern Europe before them had seen.
      - xcv123 3y ago
        The US agencies involvement in such events is a mundane obvious fact at this point. It would be a conspiracy theory for there NOT to be any involvement by the US in such a critical sequence of events against one of their major adversaries. That is a very naive perspective. https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... Today there is a proxy war between the US and Russia in Ukraine. $100B of US military backing so far, and it's not over yet.
        mopsi 3y ago
        None of this refutes what I wrote. If you're in the mood to read Wikipedia, then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_involvement_in_regime_c... Looking at the amount of brown color on the map, you may notice that Russia has invaded all their neighbours at one point or another.
- nulld3v 3y ago
  This was a major point in your other comment that I forgot to address actually, my bad. Let me repeat your point just to make sure I am understanding it correctly: "The US should have known that meddling in Ukraine would start a war. Therefore, they shouldn't have meddled in Ukraine." This could be true. But then I would argue: The US has long used the "bastion of freedom" approach because they believe it works - they believe that if they meddle in everybody's affairs to keep them aligned with the US, that this will help world peace. Therefore Russia would have already known that the US would meddle in Ukraine. And Russia would have known that would cause them to start a war. Therefore, Russia would have known that the US was on track to start a war with them in a neighboring country and did nothing about it for nearly a decade (other than warning the US). Does this seem reasonable? And I also argue against your original point: "The US should have known that meddling in Ukraine would start a war." I don't believe this is reasonable because even if they knew, they were wrong. The invasion didn't start until 8 years after the 2014 revolution. So when did the meddling occur? Before the revolution? After? Let's assume that the meddling happened before 2014. Are the intelligence agencies stupid? Their meddling caused a large portion of Ukraine to be annexed with little resistance. Do you think the intelligence agencies would have been happy with that outcome? Let's assume that the meddling happened after 2014. Why would the intelligence agencies cause another war when the previous one was so easily lost? I guess the big question is: Why would the US want war so bad? Why would they blindly turn Ukraine against Russia KNOWING that a war was coming that could turn Ukraine against the US (if it was annexed)?
  - xcv123 3y ago
    > Let me repeat your point just to make sure I am understanding it correctly: "The US should have known that meddling in Ukraine would start a war. Therefore, they shouldn't have meddled in Ukraine." No. I am saying that I believe US/NATO by proxy intentionally provoked war with Russia. No should haves or shouldn't haves on either side. Not interested in subjective moral debates. There was much provocation against Russia post 2014. You can go back and read the Russian propaganda and compare it to the US propaganda and maybe find some truth between the lines https://www.rt.com/russia/551314-putin-explains-ukraine-tactic/ https://www.rt.com/russia/551314-putin-explains-ukraine-tact...

xcv123 3y ago

Your reply is well thought out. The fact is that Ukraine was being turned against Russia. This was unacceptable to them and considered an existential risk, whether by direct or indirect force, by military or political/cultural subversion. This is evidenced by the huge risk and sacrifices that Russia has accepted with this course of action. They warned that this would happen as a consequence, for many years.

mopsi 3y ago
> The fact is that Ukraine was being turned against Russia. Funny. I thought it was the invasion in 2014 and the crimes against humanity committed by invading Russians that soured relations between Ukraine and Russia. Are Americans at fault for rising anti-German tensions in Poland back in 1939 too?
- xcv123 3y ago
  The annexation of Crimea occurred immediately after the 2014 revolution. The west made their move and Russia responded.
  - mopsi 3y ago
    That's not how the events unfolded. Russians pressured Ukrainian president to block a very favorable trade deal with the EU that had already received overwhelming support and passed the parliament. The general public responded with massive protests, Ukrainian president mishandled the situation and gave order to shoot at protesters, protests grew even larger in response, and the president eventually fled to Russia. Russians used the time of internal turmoil as an opportunity to invade Crimea and Eastern Ukraine to further their interest of expanding Russia to the extent of the Soviet Union. You don't need to construct elaborate conspiracy theories about CIA involvement, when Ukrainians were mad as hell over losing the opportunity to see their income sharply rise from open trade with the EU, like everyone else in Eastern Europe before them had seen.
    - xcv123 3y ago
      The US agencies involvement in such events is a mundane obvious fact at this point. It would be a conspiracy theory for there NOT to be any involvement by the US in such a critical sequence of events against one of their major adversaries. That is a very naive perspective. https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... Today there is a proxy war between the US and Russia in Ukraine. $100B of US military backing so far, and it's not over yet.
      - mopsi 3y ago
        None of this refutes what I wrote. If you're in the mood to read Wikipedia, then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_involvement_in_regime_c... Looking at the amount of brown color on the map, you may notice that Russia has invaded all their neighbours at one point or another.
nulld3v 3y ago
This was a major point in your other comment that I forgot to address actually, my bad. Let me repeat your point just to make sure I am understanding it correctly: "The US should have known that meddling in Ukraine would start a war. Therefore, they shouldn't have meddled in Ukraine." This could be true. But then I would argue: The US has long used the "bastion of freedom" approach because they believe it works - they believe that if they meddle in everybody's affairs to keep them aligned with the US, that this will help world peace. Therefore Russia would have already known that the US would meddle in Ukraine. And Russia would have known that would cause them to start a war. Therefore, Russia would have known that the US was on track to start a war with them in a neighboring country and did nothing about it for nearly a decade (other than warning the US). Does this seem reasonable? And I also argue against your original point: "The US should have known that meddling in Ukraine would start a war." I don't believe this is reasonable because even if they knew, they were wrong. The invasion didn't start until 8 years after the 2014 revolution. So when did the meddling occur? Before the revolution? After? Let's assume that the meddling happened before 2014. Are the intelligence agencies stupid? Their meddling caused a large portion of Ukraine to be annexed with little resistance. Do you think the intelligence agencies would have been happy with that outcome? Let's assume that the meddling happened after 2014. Why would the intelligence agencies cause another war when the previous one was so easily lost? I guess the big question is: Why would the US want war so bad? Why would they blindly turn Ukraine against Russia KNOWING that a war was coming that could turn Ukraine against the US (if it was annexed)?
- xcv123 3y ago
  > Let me repeat your point just to make sure I am understanding it correctly: "The US should have known that meddling in Ukraine would start a war. Therefore, they shouldn't have meddled in Ukraine." No. I am saying that I believe US/NATO by proxy intentionally provoked war with Russia. No should haves or shouldn't haves on either side. Not interested in subjective moral debates. There was much provocation against Russia post 2014. You can go back and read the Russian propaganda and compare it to the US propaganda and maybe find some truth between the lines https://www.rt.com/russia/551314-putin-explains-ukraine-tactic/ https://www.rt.com/russia/551314-putin-explains-ukraine-tact...