5 ms·

- Re: the water/food/etc, I think you’re being glib about its impacts. It was widely described as a huge humanitarian crisis, e.g. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023

- Re: the water/food/etc, I think you’re being glib about its impacts. It was widely described as a huge humanitarian crisis, e.g. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/16/israeli-authorities-cutting-water-leading-public-health-crisis-gaza https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/16/israeli-authorities-cutt... - Re: Hiroshima, can we compare it to the amount of explosive the US dropped in the entire country of Afghanistan over a much longer period? The point is that this is an insanely high amount of bombing, even with respect to other wars. https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-dropped-as-many-bombs-in-gaza-us-afghanistan-2019-2023-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-dropped-as-many-bombs... - Re: West Bank violence, I said settlers have killed “dozens” as a lowball number because I was too lazy to find a link. The actual number (including by Israeli security forces) is 192: https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/22/while-fire-rages-gaza-west-bank-smolders https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/22/while-fire-rages-gaza-we... - Re: stripping prisoners, I imagine “paraded” is another word we’d disagree on like “targeted”, but Israel itself has said that it stripped “military aged men” and a number have been recognized by friends and family as noncombatants: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-images-palestinians-stripped-blindfolded-gaza-rcna128685 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-images-p... - Here’s a tweet from someone who recognizes a journalist firsthand. This is sexual violence, by the way: https://x.com/dima_khatib/status/1732797311846064541 https://x.com/dima_khatib/status/1732797311846064541 - Re: abducted — yes, of course Israel will claim there’s a pretext for abducting people (although over 2,500 have been held without charges on “administrative detention”). This is kind of like someone in the antebellum US south saying “those runaway slaves were arrested in accordance with the law” — maybe true but not the point! Do you think the police are fair to Palestinians? The courts? https://www.npr.org/2023/12/01/1216643555/thousands-of-palestinians-are-held-without-charge-under-israeli-detention-policy https://www.npr.org/2023/12/01/1216643555/thousands-of-pales... - Re: torture, I don’t know what you happens in prison. I guarantee it’s not better for political prisoners in apartheid regimes. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-ho... - Re: bombing the south, there have been so many reported instances of Israel telling people to evacuate and then bombing the escape route. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian... - Re: arming settlers, this already sounds real bad, so if they’re handing out more guns in addition to that, it sounds… worse. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231011-far-right-israel-mk-to-distribute-10000-rifles-to-settlers/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231011-far-right-israel-... - Re: attacking the ambulance, of course the IDF says that there was Hamas there — that’s what they say about everything! I’m not going to look up a source here. If there’s any evidence that corroborates the IDF’s claim from an independent source, feel free to post it. - Re: “bombed every hospital”, you’re using quotation marks but not actually quoting me directly. As of a month ago, Israel had issued evacuation orders for 22 hospitals in North Gaza and half of the 36 hospitals in Gaza had stopped operations. Unclear how many the IDF actually attacked but it’s a lot more than zero! https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/14/gaza-unlawful-israeli-hospital-strikes-worsen-health-crisis https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/14/gaza-unlawful-israeli-ho... - Re: 2/3, it was reported in the Financial Times. Also note that the damage the US inflicted on German cities in a matter of years, Israel has inflicted on Gaza in a matter of weeks. https://www.ft.com/content/7b407c2e-8149-4d83-be01-72dcae8aee7b https://www.ft.com/content/7b407c2e-8149-4d83-be01-72dcae8ae...

YZF 3y ago
Sorry I did take a bit of liberty with quoting you, the correct quote is: "Bombed basically every hospital" ... "basically" is basically a filler word that does not change the meaning. But I apologize and promise not to do that again. I don't think changing "settlers" to "security forces" or conflating "issued an evacuation order" with "bombing", or "torture" vs. "things that happen in prison" is having a discussion in good faith. Many of those killed by the security forces were killed while they were attacking Israelis or during combat or clashes. If you're willing to have a discussion in good faith I'm happy to engage but you'll have to stop doing that. This is not helping some of the valid points you're making. "But what about the west bank" is a common anti-Israeli propaganda tool on social media. There's a lot to unpack there but I think it should mostly be an orthogonal discussion to the war in Gaza. https://embassies.gov.il/UnGeneva/NewsAndEvents/Pages/Hamas-uses-hospitals-and-ambulances-for-military-terrorist-purposes.aspx https://embassies.gov.il/UnGeneva/NewsAndEvents/Pages/Hamas-... https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/hamas-ambualnce-al-shifa-hospital-hostages-israel https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/hamas... I think specifically with ambulances there's a few ways to think about this: - What is the benefit that Israel derives from attacking ambulances? - What would be a reasonable standard of proof here? If forces come under attack from an ambulance, they bomb it, and it's destroyed, how do you expect Israel to prove that? - Is the Hamas a signatory to the Geneva convention and are their methods typically in line with the laws of war? Are they generally honest? Moral? - Did Israel order evacuation of those areas and give ample time for this evacuation to happen in accordance with the laws of war? I think if you answer these honestly you'll say that Hamas would certainly use ambulances if they felt that was to their advantage and that Israel would not generally target ambulances intentionally. Is there a large gray area? Sure. Is it possible that Israeli forces would have a "light finger on the trigger". Sure. It's a war and it's their lives. Do I think that allowing Ambulances to operate within combat areas is a high priority for Israel? No. There's a big difference between actions that are within reason and actions that are intentionally evil. The goal of many people saying "Israel attacks ambulances" is to paint a picture of Israel being evil. They want to take a single ambulance that was attacked in a major scale conflict and use it as a propaganda weapon against Israel. That said Israel should be expected to follow the laws of war and we should demand that it does. If our goal is to end the war and to make some sort of progress for the benefit of everyone involved I don't think inflammatory language or evoking anti-Israeli emotions is the way to get us there. I can get behind that goal if the methods are different.

YZF 3y ago

Sorry I did take a bit of liberty with quoting you, the correct quote is: "Bombed basically every hospital" ... "basically" is basically a filler word that does not change the meaning. But I apologize and promise not to do that again. I don't think changing "settlers" to "security forces" or conflating "issued an evacuation order" with "bombing", or "torture" vs. "things that happen in prison" is having a discussion in good faith. Many of those killed by the security forces were killed while they were attacking Israelis or during combat or clashes. If you're willing to have a discussion in good faith I'm happy to engage but you'll have to stop doing that. This is not helping some of the valid points you're making. "But what about the west bank" is a common anti-Israeli propaganda tool on social media. There's a lot to unpack there but I think it should mostly be an orthogonal discussion to the war in Gaza. https://embassies.gov.il/UnGeneva/NewsAndEvents/Pages/Hamas-uses-hospitals-and-ambulances-for-military-terrorist-purposes.aspx https://embassies.gov.il/UnGeneva/NewsAndEvents/Pages/Hamas-... https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/hamas-ambualnce-al-shifa-hospital-hostages-israel https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/hamas... I think specifically with ambulances there's a few ways to think about this: - What is the benefit that Israel derives from attacking ambulances? - What would be a reasonable standard of proof here? If forces come under attack from an ambulance, they bomb it, and it's destroyed, how do you expect Israel to prove that? - Is the Hamas a signatory to the Geneva convention and are their methods typically in line with the laws of war? Are they generally honest? Moral? - Did Israel order evacuation of those areas and give ample time for this evacuation to happen in accordance with the laws of war? I think if you answer these honestly you'll say that Hamas would certainly use ambulances if they felt that was to their advantage and that Israel would not generally target ambulances intentionally. Is there a large gray area? Sure. Is it possible that Israeli forces would have a "light finger on the trigger". Sure. It's a war and it's their lives. Do I think that allowing Ambulances to operate within combat areas is a high priority for Israel? No. There's a big difference between actions that are within reason and actions that are intentionally evil. The goal of many people saying "Israel attacks ambulances" is to paint a picture of Israel being evil. They want to take a single ambulance that was attacked in a major scale conflict and use it as a propaganda weapon against Israel. That said Israel should be expected to follow the laws of war and we should demand that it does. If our goal is to end the war and to make some sort of progress for the benefit of everyone involved I don't think inflammatory language or evoking anti-Israeli emotions is the way to get us there. I can get behind that goal if the methods are different.