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As a former EU citizen: Because it's true? The EU has failed to enable big tech competitors to grow on it's countries. And instead of fixing the political, soci

As a former EU citizen: Because it's true? The EU has failed to enable big tech competitors to grow on it's countries. And instead of fixing the political, socio-economical issues, it continues to bully a) the US (which delivers actual solutions/products) and b) its very own citizens with things like dismantling end-to-end decryption / mandatory full access to chats (mind you not for the EU politicians themselves, of course, see Biontech deals that von der Leyen "lost"). And where is the EU citizens' election regarding said chat control? Where is the election regarding commission president? Would you think von der Leyen were actually elected president, had the population been given the chance to vote?

Tainnor 3y ago
> Would you think von der Leyen were actually elected president, had the population been given the chance to vote? Who knows. Do you think Mike Johnson would have been elected speaker of the US House of Representatives if the population had been given a chance to vote? "The people vote on everything" is not how any modern democracy works - no, not even Switzerland's (where it's parliament who votes for the government and not regular people). There are regular elections to the European parliament. The reason why the EU can push things like chat control (which I agree is terrible) is because frankly, many people don't care about privacy or IT in general. Just take a look at the UK, it's not part of the union anymore, but it still hasn't stopped proposing horrible IT regulation. This has nothing to do with the EU and everything with the fact that scare tactics like "terrorism" and "child abuse" work for a lot of people.
- Longhanks 3y ago
  The president of the entity that presumes to be politically representative in negations with or against the US and China should absolutely be voted for. Mike Johnson or any other speaker of the US House of Representatives doesn't have a fraction of the power that von der Leyen currently holds. I can't think of any presidential government where the president is not also voted for by the people (at least none, that "the west" considers a democracy). Would you think US citizens would accept not being able to vote on the matter of who becomes president? Then why is it ok for EU citizens not to vote on that issue?
  - Tainnor 3y ago
    Neither the Swiss nor the German executive government is voted for by the people. I guess those aren't presidents, but why does it matter? Oh, by the way, the German president (who is only a figurehead) is also not elected by the people. Technically, not even the US president is elected directly by the people (but by the electoral council). This is why someone can become president without receiving the popular vote.
    - Longhanks 3y ago
      You're trying really hard to misunderstand my point. The Swiss executive is bound by the referendums, and the German president is of course not the equivalent to the US president in terms of power or political role. But you knew that already, so let's agree that we disagree on what a democracy should look like, shall we?
      - camillomiller 3y ago
        In Italy or Germany you don’t vote directly for the Prime Minister either. You vote for the party or coalition that expresses that candidate, but the elected parties usually form a coalition and part of the deal is who’s getting the PM chair. France and the US have what’s called “presidentialism” and they’re mostly outliers in Western democracies.
        Tainnor 3y ago
        Same with the UK - the latest string of PMs would probably never have been elected by the people.
      - Tainnor 3y ago
        > You're trying really hard to misunderstand my point. No, you're missing mine: 1. In no country in the world do the people vote on everything. In many countries, the head of government is not elected directly. 2. Direct democracy is rare and most democracies are representative. 3. The EU's institutions are thus not uniquely undemocratic - they all eventually derive their power from the people. 4. What you're accusing the EU of doing (i.e. bad legislation) is happening elsewhere too (e.g. in the UK). 5. That's because people actually want or are indifferent to such things.

Tainnor 3y ago

> Would you think von der Leyen were actually elected president, had the population been given the chance to vote? Who knows. Do you think Mike Johnson would have been elected speaker of the US House of Representatives if the population had been given a chance to vote? "The people vote on everything" is not how any modern democracy works - no, not even Switzerland's (where it's parliament who votes for the government and not regular people). There are regular elections to the European parliament. The reason why the EU can push things like chat control (which I agree is terrible) is because frankly, many people don't care about privacy or IT in general. Just take a look at the UK, it's not part of the union anymore, but it still hasn't stopped proposing horrible IT regulation. This has nothing to do with the EU and everything with the fact that scare tactics like "terrorism" and "child abuse" work for a lot of people.

Longhanks 3y ago
The president of the entity that presumes to be politically representative in negations with or against the US and China should absolutely be voted for. Mike Johnson or any other speaker of the US House of Representatives doesn't have a fraction of the power that von der Leyen currently holds. I can't think of any presidential government where the president is not also voted for by the people (at least none, that "the west" considers a democracy). Would you think US citizens would accept not being able to vote on the matter of who becomes president? Then why is it ok for EU citizens not to vote on that issue?
- Tainnor 3y ago
  Neither the Swiss nor the German executive government is voted for by the people. I guess those aren't presidents, but why does it matter? Oh, by the way, the German president (who is only a figurehead) is also not elected by the people. Technically, not even the US president is elected directly by the people (but by the electoral council). This is why someone can become president without receiving the popular vote.
  - Longhanks 3y ago
    You're trying really hard to misunderstand my point. The Swiss executive is bound by the referendums, and the German president is of course not the equivalent to the US president in terms of power or political role. But you knew that already, so let's agree that we disagree on what a democracy should look like, shall we?
    - camillomiller 3y ago
      In Italy or Germany you don’t vote directly for the Prime Minister either. You vote for the party or coalition that expresses that candidate, but the elected parties usually form a coalition and part of the deal is who’s getting the PM chair. France and the US have what’s called “presidentialism” and they’re mostly outliers in Western democracies.
      - Tainnor 3y ago
        Same with the UK - the latest string of PMs would probably never have been elected by the people.
    - Tainnor 3y ago
      > You're trying really hard to misunderstand my point. No, you're missing mine: 1. In no country in the world do the people vote on everything. In many countries, the head of government is not elected directly. 2. Direct democracy is rare and most democracies are representative. 3. The EU's institutions are thus not uniquely undemocratic - they all eventually derive their power from the people. 4. What you're accusing the EU of doing (i.e. bad legislation) is happening elsewhere too (e.g. in the UK). 5. That's because people actually want or are indifferent to such things.