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The amount of division in the Balkans -- especially in the last 20-30 years -- has never made much sense to me, given how close culturally and ethnically most o

The amount of division in the Balkans -- especially in the last 20-30 years -- has never made much sense to me, given how close culturally and ethnically most of the population is. This only confirms that the fragmentation of the region is driven more from the creation of 'national myths' than on genetic differences between different groups of people.

Swizec 3y ago
> This only confirms that the fragmentation of the region is driven more from the creation of 'national myths' than on genetic differences Always has been. You think there was such a thing as “French” a thousand years ago? Are people from Munich really that different than Vienna? Do folks in Geneva really differ deeply from people in Lyon? Europe is very small. From Kyev, capital of Ukraine, to Ljubljana, capital of Slovenia, it’s about the same distance as San Francisco to Los Angeles. Yet it crosses 3 countries. Kings and governments come and go, but the people stay. My great grandma, for example, lived in 4 different countries without leaving her village.
- pxeboot 3y ago
  > Europe is very small. For another US reference point: the entire European Union is about the same size as Alaska.
  - pvg 3y ago
    https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=area+of+alaska+vs+area+of+eu https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=area+of+alaska+vs+area+... EU is a lot bigger than Alaska and there's a lot of Europe it doesn't cover.
    - mk89 3y ago
      Europe is not just the "European Union". I know many don't like Russia at the moment, but its western part is Europe. Same for Ukraine, also not part of the European Union, but it's part of Europe (the continent). In the context of European "genetics" keeping Russia and Ukraine out of Europe is basically non-sense considering the Slavs kind of come from there :)
      - pvg 3y ago
        You might be replying to the wrong comment.
  - fhars 3y ago
    In Mercator projection?
  - eigenket 3y ago
    For a more accurate reference point, the EU's area is about 4.2 million km and the contiguous USA (so without Alaska etc) is about 8 million, so the EU is about half the area of the contiguous US.
    - mk89 3y ago
      Europe is 10 million km - why to skip some countries just because they are not part of a "political" union? This article is about analysing the genetics of people living in Europe, so the entire continent must be considered and "historically" Europe extends until west Russia. If you consider only the European Union, you kind of exclude the British, who share a lot with the rest of the continent.
      - eigenket 3y ago
        To match the guy I was replying to, and because the USA is primarily a political, not geographical construct so it makes sense to compare it to another political construct in the EU.
- pvg 3y ago
  Kyev, capital of Ukraine, to Ljubljana, capital of Slovenia, it’s about the same distance as San Francisco to Los Angeles. One is a bit over 500 km and the other is about 1300 km. It's not meaningfully 'about the same distance'. It's an enourmous distance to hit only three European countries, though, you can do this in much less time/distance driving around nearby Trieste or Bratislava.
  - Swizec 3y ago
    Huh you’re right. Maybe I was remembering border to border air distance. Was looking this up a few years ago when friends were asking how far Ukraine was from my family. Here’s a more fun context instead: after college I went on a roadtrip and covered 13 countries in about 4000 miles.
    - pvg 3y ago
      You started some sort of Europeshrinking conspiracy here, check out the sibling comment that's off by a similar factor but for area.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- hammock 3y ago
  Doesn’t have to be large groups to be different groups. That seems like a fallacious argument. Empirically/anecdotally I bet quite a few people could with 90%+ accuracy pick a (third-generation) Iberian vs Frank vs Polack vs Scandi out of a lineup just by physical features Alternatively take a reasonably deep look at American (North or South) indigenous tribal societies- the empirical history is thinner there but similar conclusions
  - Wytwwww 3y ago
    > 90%+ accuracy pick a (third-generation) Iberian vs Frank vs Polack vs Scandi If they have the same haircut, tan and clothes? Highly doubtful...
    - rayiner 3y ago
      The average Swedish or Danish man is more than three inches taller than the average Spanish man.
      - ffgjgf1 3y ago
        That doesn’t mean much and wouldn’t be particularly useful when picking a limited number of people from a lineup (certainly not at at 90% accuracy) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation
    - hammock 3y ago
      Someone posted a photo of eight Italian soccer players all wearing the same uniform and said “there is no meaningful difference between northern and southern Italians, try to tell them apart.” I guessed, and got 7 of 8 correct. (The one I missed was Sardinian)
- SenAnder 3y ago
  Europe may be small, yet there are measurable genetic differences between its peoples: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735096/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735096/ Looking at a larger, but still relatively closely connected region, magnifies those differences further: https://site.nevgen.org/2020/05/05/autosomal-pca-charts-of-europe-near-east-and-mediterranean/ https://site.nevgen.org/2020/05/05/autosomal-pca-charts-of-e...
- astrange 3y ago
  The UK is fairly small but has very different accents in different regions. Genetic history and accents both come from how far people travel, as far as I know, so as long as people don't go far they can remain separate.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Nthringas 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule if governance were a technical field (which it is) that idea would be like a theorem the remaining puzzle is who is really "ruling" the balkans?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
philwelch 3y ago
Genetic differences don't account for all differences between people. For a long time the Balkans were a borderlands between empires, and that often tends to introduce differences in culture, religion, and identity.

Swizec 3y ago

> This only confirms that the fragmentation of the region is driven more from the creation of 'national myths' than on genetic differences Always has been. You think there was such a thing as “French” a thousand years ago? Are people from Munich really that different than Vienna? Do folks in Geneva really differ deeply from people in Lyon? Europe is very small. From Kyev, capital of Ukraine, to Ljubljana, capital of Slovenia, it’s about the same distance as San Francisco to Los Angeles. Yet it crosses 3 countries. Kings and governments come and go, but the people stay. My great grandma, for example, lived in 4 different countries without leaving her village.

pxeboot 3y ago
> Europe is very small. For another US reference point: the entire European Union is about the same size as Alaska.
- pvg 3y ago
  https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=area+of+alaska+vs+area+of+eu https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=area+of+alaska+vs+area+... EU is a lot bigger than Alaska and there's a lot of Europe it doesn't cover.
  - mk89 3y ago
    Europe is not just the "European Union". I know many don't like Russia at the moment, but its western part is Europe. Same for Ukraine, also not part of the European Union, but it's part of Europe (the continent). In the context of European "genetics" keeping Russia and Ukraine out of Europe is basically non-sense considering the Slavs kind of come from there :)
    - pvg 3y ago
      You might be replying to the wrong comment.
- fhars 3y ago
  In Mercator projection?
- eigenket 3y ago
  For a more accurate reference point, the EU's area is about 4.2 million km and the contiguous USA (so without Alaska etc) is about 8 million, so the EU is about half the area of the contiguous US.
  - mk89 3y ago
    Europe is 10 million km - why to skip some countries just because they are not part of a "political" union? This article is about analysing the genetics of people living in Europe, so the entire continent must be considered and "historically" Europe extends until west Russia. If you consider only the European Union, you kind of exclude the British, who share a lot with the rest of the continent.
    - eigenket 3y ago
      To match the guy I was replying to, and because the USA is primarily a political, not geographical construct so it makes sense to compare it to another political construct in the EU.
pvg 3y ago
Kyev, capital of Ukraine, to Ljubljana, capital of Slovenia, it’s about the same distance as San Francisco to Los Angeles. One is a bit over 500 km and the other is about 1300 km. It's not meaningfully 'about the same distance'. It's an enourmous distance to hit only three European countries, though, you can do this in much less time/distance driving around nearby Trieste or Bratislava.
- Swizec 3y ago
  Huh you’re right. Maybe I was remembering border to border air distance. Was looking this up a few years ago when friends were asking how far Ukraine was from my family. Here’s a more fun context instead: after college I went on a roadtrip and covered 13 countries in about 4000 miles.
  - pvg 3y ago
    You started some sort of Europeshrinking conspiracy here, check out the sibling comment that's off by a similar factor but for area.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
hammock 3y ago
Doesn’t have to be large groups to be different groups. That seems like a fallacious argument. Empirically/anecdotally I bet quite a few people could with 90%+ accuracy pick a (third-generation) Iberian vs Frank vs Polack vs Scandi out of a lineup just by physical features Alternatively take a reasonably deep look at American (North or South) indigenous tribal societies- the empirical history is thinner there but similar conclusions
- Wytwwww 3y ago
  > 90%+ accuracy pick a (third-generation) Iberian vs Frank vs Polack vs Scandi If they have the same haircut, tan and clothes? Highly doubtful...
  - rayiner 3y ago
    The average Swedish or Danish man is more than three inches taller than the average Spanish man.
    - ffgjgf1 3y ago
      That doesn’t mean much and wouldn’t be particularly useful when picking a limited number of people from a lineup (certainly not at at 90% accuracy) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation
  - hammock 3y ago
    Someone posted a photo of eight Italian soccer players all wearing the same uniform and said “there is no meaningful difference between northern and southern Italians, try to tell them apart.” I guessed, and got 7 of 8 correct. (The one I missed was Sardinian)
SenAnder 3y ago
Europe may be small, yet there are measurable genetic differences between its peoples: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735096/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735096/ Looking at a larger, but still relatively closely connected region, magnifies those differences further: https://site.nevgen.org/2020/05/05/autosomal-pca-charts-of-europe-near-east-and-mediterranean/ https://site.nevgen.org/2020/05/05/autosomal-pca-charts-of-e...
astrange 3y ago
The UK is fairly small but has very different accents in different regions. Genetic history and accents both come from how far people travel, as far as I know, so as long as people don't go far they can remain separate.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Nthringas 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule if governance were a technical field (which it is) that idea would be like a theorem the remaining puzzle is who is really "ruling" the balkans?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

philwelch 3y ago

Genetic differences don't account for all differences between people. For a long time the Balkans were a borderlands between empires, and that often tends to introduce differences in culture, religion, and identity.