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Literally every EU institution is legitimized just like National governments: - EU Parliament is elected by citizens - EU commission is selected by national g

by tfourb 3y ago

Literally every EU institution is legitimized just like National governments: - EU Parliament is elected by citizens - EU commission is selected by national governments and approved by the EU parliament - EU council are the heads of government of the member states

ur-whale 3y ago
[flagged]
- beeboobaa 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - ur-whale 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - PentelicoMarble 3y ago
      Where did you move?
    - beeboobaa 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    Do you say the same to americans who criticize the US? What a weird talking point. Not that I agree with him in the first place, but still
    - beeboobaa 3y ago
      Yes. I'm not american btw.
  - dang 3y ago
    Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- mvdwoord 3y ago
  Also, I can only vote for the EP on candidates from my own country, who actively campaign under their own national party but they are part of a European party (regularly together with another party from my own country with which they pretend to disagree on national politics). If the EP was anywhere near democratic, I would be able to vote for any European candidate, and they would at least campaign for the European party they will be a part of, once elected.
  - gpderetta 3y ago
    None of the countries I'm familiar with allows you to vote for arbitrary candidates even on local elections. You can only vote for candidates that are running for your local area. At least on Italy the major national parties definitely are not members of the same EU party. I'm pretty sure that's the case in UK as well.
  - tfourb 3y ago
    So you don't understand how it actually works. There are no "European Parties" at least not how one generally understands the term in national politics. Candidates for the EU parliamentary election are elected on the ticket of national parties. Those parties are free to form alliances (on a national basis) but most don't. Once a candidate is elected and joins the parliament, they usually join a faction of like-minded MPs from across the EU, i.e. conservatives, liberals, social democrats, greens. Those are NOT parties but function similar to i.e. the faction structure in German parliament which may also contain members from multiple parties. Politicians from different national parties may end up in the same faction in EU parliament but that is rare. This is more or less the same how it works for national elections in many countries, it is called "representative democracy", simply adapted to make sure that the EU parliament is roughly representative of the EU electorate.
    - mvdwoord 3y ago
      Voting in NL is possible on all candidates, nationwide. As it should be. Wether it is a faction or a party, two Dutch parties who claim to be different when campaigning for Dutch elections, sit and vote happily together in the EP. It is all representative democracy, they gave us a direct vote in a referendum, two or three times. The outcome was not as desired, apparently, so it was either done again, or ignored. The sales pitch is that we should all be Europeans, voting for European governance... So let me vote on Europeans, not just dutchies. May be different in other countries but that makes no sense to me. A lot of countries allow voting on anyone who is an eligible candidate for the thing being voted for. Unless, e.g. like for the us Senate, where, iiuc there is an equal representation of two senators per state.
- dang 3y ago
  The flamewar comments you've been posting are breaking the site guidelines badly. Moreover, we've asked you many times in the past to stop doing this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29151075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29151075 (Nov 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28938133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28938133 (Oct 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427574 (Sept 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24319055 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24319055 (Aug 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20867992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20867992 (Sept 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18007945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18007945 (Sept 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17678257 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17678257 (Aug 2018) If you keep doing this, we're going to have to ban you. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and properly stop, that would be good.
pyuser583 3y ago
Political legitimacy does not come mimicking the methods by which leaders are selected. Some of the strongest sources of political legitimacy are: * Continuity with past institutions. For example ,the 98th Congress was legitimate because it succeeded the 97th Congress. * Shared values and norms. For example, NATO suffered a huge loss of legitimacy due to the second Iraq war. * Ability to identify public threat actors, and the ability to legitimately use violence (like incarceration) against them. For example, states with strong elements of organized crime usually suffer from low political legitimacy. However when organized crime becomes part of the state, legitimacy can increase (Hezbollah, the Chicago Outfit, and the Yakuza are examples). * Self constraint by clearly defined norms. Some things just “aren’t done.” In America it would be scandal if a judge was elected because of the persons ability to fundraise. But that’s very common for ambassadors. For judges it’s just “not done.” If a foreign power invaded and held elections, it’s unlikely the elections would be seen as legitimate, even if they were free and fair. This is why both the US and Soviet Union were unable to hold legitimate elections in thier respective zones in Germany until the occupation ended. Elections are really good example of how simulating an institution does not confer legitimacy.
- catlifeonmars 3y ago
  You’ve missed another obvious example: fiat currency.
  - pyuser583 3y ago
    Currency is a really weird one. Historically currency was the legitimacy multiplier, but it was about getting the god-king’s face on the coinage, not setting economic policy. Nowadays governments are pretty indifferent about whose face is on the currency. And they’re likewise indifferent about economic sovereignty.
    - catlifeonmars 3y ago
      Idk about indifference. Argentina is a recent example but you have to consider the trade off between being able to control monetary policy and not being able to shoot yourself in foot by being able to control monetary policy.

by tfourb 3y ago

ur-whale 3y ago

[flagged]

beeboobaa 3y ago
[flagged]
- ur-whale 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - PentelicoMarble 3y ago
    Where did you move?
  - beeboobaa 3y ago
    [flagged]
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  Do you say the same to americans who criticize the US? What a weird talking point. Not that I agree with him in the first place, but still
  - beeboobaa 3y ago
    Yes. I'm not american btw.
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
mvdwoord 3y ago
Also, I can only vote for the EP on candidates from my own country, who actively campaign under their own national party but they are part of a European party (regularly together with another party from my own country with which they pretend to disagree on national politics). If the EP was anywhere near democratic, I would be able to vote for any European candidate, and they would at least campaign for the European party they will be a part of, once elected.
- gpderetta 3y ago
  None of the countries I'm familiar with allows you to vote for arbitrary candidates even on local elections. You can only vote for candidates that are running for your local area. At least on Italy the major national parties definitely are not members of the same EU party. I'm pretty sure that's the case in UK as well.
- tfourb 3y ago
  So you don't understand how it actually works. There are no "European Parties" at least not how one generally understands the term in national politics. Candidates for the EU parliamentary election are elected on the ticket of national parties. Those parties are free to form alliances (on a national basis) but most don't. Once a candidate is elected and joins the parliament, they usually join a faction of like-minded MPs from across the EU, i.e. conservatives, liberals, social democrats, greens. Those are NOT parties but function similar to i.e. the faction structure in German parliament which may also contain members from multiple parties. Politicians from different national parties may end up in the same faction in EU parliament but that is rare. This is more or less the same how it works for national elections in many countries, it is called "representative democracy", simply adapted to make sure that the EU parliament is roughly representative of the EU electorate.
  - mvdwoord 3y ago
    Voting in NL is possible on all candidates, nationwide. As it should be. Wether it is a faction or a party, two Dutch parties who claim to be different when campaigning for Dutch elections, sit and vote happily together in the EP. It is all representative democracy, they gave us a direct vote in a referendum, two or three times. The outcome was not as desired, apparently, so it was either done again, or ignored. The sales pitch is that we should all be Europeans, voting for European governance... So let me vote on Europeans, not just dutchies. May be different in other countries but that makes no sense to me. A lot of countries allow voting on anyone who is an eligible candidate for the thing being voted for. Unless, e.g. like for the us Senate, where, iiuc there is an equal representation of two senators per state.
dang 3y ago
The flamewar comments you've been posting are breaking the site guidelines badly. Moreover, we've asked you many times in the past to stop doing this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29151075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29151075 (Nov 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28938133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28938133 (Oct 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427574 (Sept 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24319055 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24319055 (Aug 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20867992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20867992 (Sept 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18007945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18007945 (Sept 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17678257 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17678257 (Aug 2018) If you keep doing this, we're going to have to ban you. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and properly stop, that would be good.

pyuser583 3y ago

Political legitimacy does not come mimicking the methods by which leaders are selected. Some of the strongest sources of political legitimacy are: * Continuity with past institutions. For example ,the 98th Congress was legitimate because it succeeded the 97th Congress. * Shared values and norms. For example, NATO suffered a huge loss of legitimacy due to the second Iraq war. * Ability to identify public threat actors, and the ability to legitimately use violence (like incarceration) against them. For example, states with strong elements of organized crime usually suffer from low political legitimacy. However when organized crime becomes part of the state, legitimacy can increase (Hezbollah, the Chicago Outfit, and the Yakuza are examples). * Self constraint by clearly defined norms. Some things just “aren’t done.” In America it would be scandal if a judge was elected because of the persons ability to fundraise. But that’s very common for ambassadors. For judges it’s just “not done.” If a foreign power invaded and held elections, it’s unlikely the elections would be seen as legitimate, even if they were free and fair. This is why both the US and Soviet Union were unable to hold legitimate elections in thier respective zones in Germany until the occupation ended. Elections are really good example of how simulating an institution does not confer legitimacy.

catlifeonmars 3y ago
You’ve missed another obvious example: fiat currency.
- pyuser583 3y ago
  Currency is a really weird one. Historically currency was the legitimacy multiplier, but it was about getting the god-king’s face on the coinage, not setting economic policy. Nowadays governments are pretty indifferent about whose face is on the currency. And they’re likewise indifferent about economic sovereignty.
  - catlifeonmars 3y ago
    Idk about indifference. Argentina is a recent example but you have to consider the trade off between being able to control monetary policy and not being able to shoot yourself in foot by being able to control monetary policy.