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> My kids get regular doses of “No limits!” and “You can be whatever you want!” in school, and I resent it because it simply isn’t true. You cannot actually be

by pards 3y ago

> My kids get regular doses of “No limits!” and “You can be whatever you want!” in school, and I resent it because it simply isn’t true. You cannot actually be whatever you want. That’s harmful, sentimental garbage. Fact is, the real world is chock full of limits. This is the danger of participation awards. It's how people end up in careers they aren't suited to. As a society, we owe it to our children to be honest with them and guide them down paths that will satisfy the aspects of life that are important to them. It's a balancing act between ability, aptitude, drive, and personality. Doing well in math and science does not necessarily mean that the child will be happy in a career that require those skills, especially if they actually enjoy music, art, or shop class more. Unfortunately many of these trade-offs are presented financially to kids; that doing what you love may result in a financially challenging life, and ignore the satisfaction and mental health benefits that would derive from such a choice.

psd1 3y ago
Yes, although... don't underestimate the mental strain of always struggling financially and worrying about bills and rent
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Indeed. It takes living through bad and good times to fully understand just how much money actually buys happiness, by shielding you from countless of soul-training problems and death through thousand little tradeoffs. It's been said that "money is unit of caring", in the sense that if you're not willing to spend money on something, you're not serious about it. But in a similar sense, money is the unit of not giving a fuck - the more disposable income you have, the more soul-draining bullshit you can throw money at to make it go away.
sjducb 3y ago
You may not be able to do whatever you want, but you can often get a lot further than you think. The first few years after school are the time to shoot for the moon.
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  Agree, worst is to broadcast that someone can't do a thing. So often kids live up to (or down to) your expectations of them.
- jmye 3y ago
  And if you don’t, who cares. Failing at 23 isn’t fatal and probably teaches you a lot more than mediocre success. Everyone’s so scared of going for something and missing, or deciding it’s actually not as fun or interesting as you thought. Young people should have big dreams.
- cwalv 3y ago
  It depends on their support system. The years from 18-24 can be brutal. A few mistakes ("just a year off to travel", credit card debt, a pointless major chosen to have an easier time in class and more left for socializing) can burn bridges that aren't even on your radar. Once you get into living paycheck to paycheck, esp. if you're supporting a family, your options are severely restricted. It doesn't mean you can't live a happy, peaceful, maybe even more purposeful life. But most people really don't understand how significant these decisions can be at 18.
have_faith 3y ago
There's a little too much focus on the distant future, which is very abstract for everyone to consider, especially children. Really, you can pursue anything you want to, regardless of the time horizon that you have considered it in. Walk down the street and see something interesting over the road? then cross over and take a look. Play with the a keyboard in the shop and like the feel? buy a cheap one, get some lessons, pursue it until you no longer want to. You may drop it, you may become a rockstar. You don't need to know you want to be a rockstar though. Children are already curious, we spend a lot of time trying to get them to formalise their curiosity into concrete plans. Life doesn't need long term planning, to be successful, or be happy.
- Levitz 3y ago
  >There's a little too much focus on the distant future, which is very abstract for everyone to consider, especially children. Not only is it abstract, it's uncertain. When I was in school around the 90s and early 00s, programming was nowhere near as popular as it is now. What is the job market going to look like in some 20 years? We don't know, and teachers, as part of academia, have even less of a clue.
- sgt101 3y ago
  Also, very sadly, but not uncommonly, the child may not get to enjoy the fruits of the focus on the future, because they may die. In my life: - A girl in my class aged 11 was killed by a bus. - A boy I knew aged 17 killed himself and girlfriend by driving into a tree. - A competitor at work aged 27 had a bad cold, went to the doctor and was rushed to hospital due to suspected Liver cancer and died on the operating table that afternoon. - Good friend at aged 29 A got a brain disease and died over three years. - Good friend at aged 31 got leukemia, recovered, got it back a year later and had an allergic reaction to the chemo and died. The last three were all high flyers - two or three degrees, published etc. They had (like me) sacrificed a lot to get where they had and were just (at that time) beginning to reap some rewards. The last fella in particular had just bought a house, got a steady girl who was good for him and had had an "inflection" type promotion. All for nothing. Teach children to enjoy it while they can. Maybe that gives them 9 happy years, or maybe 90. (edited for formatting)
jrm4 3y ago
I mean, best done as a gradient no? In first grade, you 100% tell them they can be whatever they want, by the end of 12th (or however it works where you are) they should be honestly looking at what sort of things make money to handle that part of life. But also, you know, how to be happy and such.
- cwalv 3y ago
  Is this just because they can't yet grasp the complexity of "whatever you want", so it's pointless to get into the details?
  - jrm4 3y ago
    Essentially yes. In the beginning it's more "cheerleading" than "logic?"
PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
Trading off satisfaction/mental health benefits with the very real stress of "a financially challenging life" is something I am constantly confronted with when I look at our son's life (now 34). In some ways I admire his committment to NOT working 40 hours a week, so that he has time and energy for his art and music which is what really makes being alive worth it for him. But when he doesn't even earn enough to pay for a place to live, has no savings, no real future prospects of anything changing ... I am not sure that his satisfaction at working on art/music can balance that out.
biiiyyt 3y ago
> Unfortunately many of these trade-offs are presented financially to kids; that doing what you love may result in a financially challenging life, and ignore the satisfaction and mental health benefits that would derive from such a choice While not strictly true, it’s very much true in the general sense. Many of our passions don’t make us money. Like it or not, living in society requires quite a lot of money. Struggling financially puts a strain on mental health, job satisfaction, relationships, etc. It dominates your experiences, your thoughts, your food, and ultimately your lifespan. It’s *hard*. “Work hard”, “do what you love and you’ll never work a day in your life”, “my passion is my work”, blah blah blah. These extremes taint the thought process of our children. As a society we poisoned the minds of multiple generations. We _should_ be teaching children that their job does not define them. That “do what you love” is unrealistic. Do what allows you to be comfortable and do what you love. Will you have be able to humblebrag on social media? Probably not. Will you be in the top 10% financially? Probably not. Will you not struggle financially and have time to do the things you actually love (family, friends, hobbies, whatever)? Hopefully! That’s the goal.
tyrvale4760 3y ago
I agree with your sentiment, but I would add two caveats: 1) Its not obvious, and hard to predict, when something one enjoys would actually make an satisfying career. Many find that turning passions into means-to-put-food-on-the-table kills the passion, or warps it. 2) Its not obvious, and hard to predict, how the mental and physical health hit will be from a "financially challenging life". Some are fine scraping by, but on average, being financially insecure is highly correlated with depression, suicide, anxiety, substance abuse issues, divorce, etc etc. All that to say, its good to be as realistic as possible with children, and as another suggested not only focus on high time frame decisions, and as you suggested avoid casting things as merely financial decisions.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rfrey 3y ago
Like remedial math, those messages might not be targeted at your kids, or any kids who get meaningful support at home. There are a lot of kids who are constantly told they are useless and will never be good for anything.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Sure, for any kind of cliche/advice, for any kind of delivering it, there exist people who need to read/hear that in exactly that form. But - unlike with remedial math - there also exist people who will be harmed by the same thing. Surely there must be a better way than shooting any given idea+form at everyone, and hoping the exposed population biases towards those who'll find it non-harmful?

by pards 3y ago

psd1 3y ago

Yes, although... don't underestimate the mental strain of always struggling financially and worrying about bills and rent

TeMPOraL 3y ago
Indeed. It takes living through bad and good times to fully understand just how much money actually buys happiness, by shielding you from countless of soul-training problems and death through thousand little tradeoffs. It's been said that "money is unit of caring", in the sense that if you're not willing to spend money on something, you're not serious about it. But in a similar sense, money is the unit of not giving a fuck - the more disposable income you have, the more soul-draining bullshit you can throw money at to make it go away.

sjducb 3y ago

You may not be able to do whatever you want, but you can often get a lot further than you think. The first few years after school are the time to shoot for the moon.

JKCalhoun 3y ago
Agree, worst is to broadcast that someone can't do a thing. So often kids live up to (or down to) your expectations of them.
jmye 3y ago
And if you don’t, who cares. Failing at 23 isn’t fatal and probably teaches you a lot more than mediocre success. Everyone’s so scared of going for something and missing, or deciding it’s actually not as fun or interesting as you thought. Young people should have big dreams.
cwalv 3y ago
It depends on their support system. The years from 18-24 can be brutal. A few mistakes ("just a year off to travel", credit card debt, a pointless major chosen to have an easier time in class and more left for socializing) can burn bridges that aren't even on your radar. Once you get into living paycheck to paycheck, esp. if you're supporting a family, your options are severely restricted. It doesn't mean you can't live a happy, peaceful, maybe even more purposeful life. But most people really don't understand how significant these decisions can be at 18.

have_faith 3y ago

There's a little too much focus on the distant future, which is very abstract for everyone to consider, especially children. Really, you can pursue anything you want to, regardless of the time horizon that you have considered it in. Walk down the street and see something interesting over the road? then cross over and take a look. Play with the a keyboard in the shop and like the feel? buy a cheap one, get some lessons, pursue it until you no longer want to. You may drop it, you may become a rockstar. You don't need to know you want to be a rockstar though. Children are already curious, we spend a lot of time trying to get them to formalise their curiosity into concrete plans. Life doesn't need long term planning, to be successful, or be happy.

Levitz 3y ago
>There's a little too much focus on the distant future, which is very abstract for everyone to consider, especially children. Not only is it abstract, it's uncertain. When I was in school around the 90s and early 00s, programming was nowhere near as popular as it is now. What is the job market going to look like in some 20 years? We don't know, and teachers, as part of academia, have even less of a clue.
sgt101 3y ago
Also, very sadly, but not uncommonly, the child may not get to enjoy the fruits of the focus on the future, because they may die. In my life: - A girl in my class aged 11 was killed by a bus. - A boy I knew aged 17 killed himself and girlfriend by driving into a tree. - A competitor at work aged 27 had a bad cold, went to the doctor and was rushed to hospital due to suspected Liver cancer and died on the operating table that afternoon. - Good friend at aged 29 A got a brain disease and died over three years. - Good friend at aged 31 got leukemia, recovered, got it back a year later and had an allergic reaction to the chemo and died. The last three were all high flyers - two or three degrees, published etc. They had (like me) sacrificed a lot to get where they had and were just (at that time) beginning to reap some rewards. The last fella in particular had just bought a house, got a steady girl who was good for him and had had an "inflection" type promotion. All for nothing. Teach children to enjoy it while they can. Maybe that gives them 9 happy years, or maybe 90. (edited for formatting)

jrm4 3y ago

I mean, best done as a gradient no? In first grade, you 100% tell them they can be whatever they want, by the end of 12th (or however it works where you are) they should be honestly looking at what sort of things make money to handle that part of life. But also, you know, how to be happy and such.

cwalv 3y ago
Is this just because they can't yet grasp the complexity of "whatever you want", so it's pointless to get into the details?
- jrm4 3y ago
  Essentially yes. In the beginning it's more "cheerleading" than "logic?"

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago

Trading off satisfaction/mental health benefits with the very real stress of "a financially challenging life" is something I am constantly confronted with when I look at our son's life (now 34). In some ways I admire his committment to NOT working 40 hours a week, so that he has time and energy for his art and music which is what really makes being alive worth it for him. But when he doesn't even earn enough to pay for a place to live, has no savings, no real future prospects of anything changing ... I am not sure that his satisfaction at working on art/music can balance that out.

biiiyyt 3y ago

> Unfortunately many of these trade-offs are presented financially to kids; that doing what you love may result in a financially challenging life, and ignore the satisfaction and mental health benefits that would derive from such a choice While not strictly true, it’s very much true in the general sense. Many of our passions don’t make us money. Like it or not, living in society requires quite a lot of money. Struggling financially puts a strain on mental health, job satisfaction, relationships, etc. It dominates your experiences, your thoughts, your food, and ultimately your lifespan. It’s *hard*. “Work hard”, “do what you love and you’ll never work a day in your life”, “my passion is my work”, blah blah blah. These extremes taint the thought process of our children. As a society we poisoned the minds of multiple generations. We _should_ be teaching children that their job does not define them. That “do what you love” is unrealistic. Do what allows you to be comfortable and do what you love. Will you have be able to humblebrag on social media? Probably not. Will you be in the top 10% financially? Probably not. Will you not struggle financially and have time to do the things you actually love (family, friends, hobbies, whatever)? Hopefully! That’s the goal.

tyrvale4760 3y ago

I agree with your sentiment, but I would add two caveats: 1) Its not obvious, and hard to predict, when something one enjoys would actually make an satisfying career. Many find that turning passions into means-to-put-food-on-the-table kills the passion, or warps it. 2) Its not obvious, and hard to predict, how the mental and physical health hit will be from a "financially challenging life". Some are fine scraping by, but on average, being financially insecure is highly correlated with depression, suicide, anxiety, substance abuse issues, divorce, etc etc. All that to say, its good to be as realistic as possible with children, and as another suggested not only focus on high time frame decisions, and as you suggested avoid casting things as merely financial decisions.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rfrey 3y ago

Like remedial math, those messages might not be targeted at your kids, or any kids who get meaningful support at home. There are a lot of kids who are constantly told they are useless and will never be good for anything.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
Sure, for any kind of cliche/advice, for any kind of delivering it, there exist people who need to read/hear that in exactly that form. But - unlike with remedial math - there also exist people who will be harmed by the same thing. Surely there must be a better way than shooting any given idea+form at everyone, and hoping the exposed population biases towards those who'll find it non-harmful?