3 ms·

"While Windows 7 is great and all and I love it compared to XP, what does it actually give you to justify the price?" I think the UI improvements alone (deskto

"While Windows 7 is great and all and I love it compared to XP, what does it actually give you to justify the price?" I think the UI improvements alone (desktop search, Aero Snap) are worth the price. Isn't this how Apple justifies charging for new versions of OS X? I still use XP from time to time and 7 is far and away a better experience. FWIW, I think it also provides a better experience than OS X, although, sadly, without the benefit of a POSIX layer. "blame the utter lack of progress by MS" It's not like MS has been sitting on their hands of late. Kinect demonstrates this. Windows 8 demonstrates this. I just don't think there's an appetite for MS progress or innovation. What people like about Windows computers isn't (and hasn't been for a long time) Windows. It's pretty hard to innovate when no one wants what you're selling. To be fair, I don't "blame the users" for this. When MS had a tight grip on computing, they did little to make their products more compelling and they are realizing the consequences of this now: Windows' name is mud.

zokier 14y ago
>I just don't think there's an appetite for MS progress or innovation. What people like about Windows computers isn't (and hasn't been for a long time) Windows. It's pretty hard to innovate when no one wants what you're selling. Good point. There is another side in here too: many people want to keep using the old systems they have learnt, instead of new better systems. Eg the backslash of Ribbon. It's pretty hard to innovate when on one wants anything to change.
- bediger4000 14y ago
  Is an "innovation" that nobody wants really innovation, or merely change-for-changes-sake? I think that if something is better, then people will want it, steal it even. Take those un-skippable previews on some DVDs: people cite them as reasons to scrounge up pirate versions of DVDs. Oh, and how about those abominable "region codes" on DVDs? Are those "innovation" or merely a monopoly-enabled form of price fixing?
  - monkeyfacebag 14y ago
    > Is an "innovation" that nobody wants really innovation, or merely change-for-changes-sake? It's not clear, at least to me, that nobody wants Microsoft's innovations. I think it's more that they don't want them from Microsoft. Windows is a tough beast to change. The near ubiquity of the platform in the 90s and 00s means that there's a lot of people out there who "imprinted" on the Windows UI model. It doesn't just affect Microsoft, though it may affect them disproportionately because of brand association. While OS X is a screaming success now, Apple's transition from OS 9 was anything but. It took 3 major revisions of the software before it was usable and a lot of people hated it at the time. In contrast, Apple's introduction of iOS received a much warmer reception because there was no incumbent. Changing a major technology platform is hard.
Bootvis 14y ago
As a counterpoint to your enthousiasm: Windows 7 does a number of things better. But I recently went back to XP for a while and was amazed about my productivity. I'm not starting apps that much so the improved start menu isn't that special. Window management hasn't changed much and I think keyboard navigation seemed easier. I would pay a small amount to downgrade.
- monkeyfacebag 14y ago
  "Window management hasn't changed much" To be fair, I think this is true across platforms. On what platform is window management better than it was 5 years ago? Sure, Windows lacks a good way to get an overview of all open windows (such as Expose), but I honestly think Aero Snap is a killer feature for desktop use (especially because it supports the keyboard so well). When programming, I often like to have my editor and reference material side by side and Aero Snap make this literally a snap, which is great when the reference material changes frequently. Sadly, when programming, I also like to use a suite of GNU tools, which makes Windows a bit less compelling. Although you seem to think it's gotten less good, I still think keyboard navigation remains Windows' strongest competitive advantage over OS X. It's also the only thing Windows does better than Gnome Shell which is otherwise the best desktop UI I've experienced.
  - Bootvis 14y ago
    I think we agree and I have to admit I under use Snap. It just doesn't come intuitive to me yet. I primarily dislike the keyboard navigation in the 'Open File...'-dialogs. Tab is not as effective anymore since it takes more hits to change focus from the folder view to the sidebar. Furthermore, and this is nitpicking, the number of tabs needed also seems to be context depended and the number of items in the sidebar has grown. I personally prefer StumpWM with KDE tools. I've never had a more effective keyboard experience.
mattmanser 14y ago
Oh yeah, I totally agree that it looks great, but £100 worth of great? Maybe £5 worth of great. Or even £10. And that's MS's problem, they've priced themselves out of their own market. The prices they charge are ridiculous and a little sad and pathetic that they think an OS, the thing that basically opens other programs, is really worth that much. I know that in reality it's much cheaper and provides more value than that. The expensive sticker price is the muppet's price, but that's the problem.

zokier 14y ago

>I just don't think there's an appetite for MS progress or innovation. What people like about Windows computers isn't (and hasn't been for a long time) Windows. It's pretty hard to innovate when no one wants what you're selling. Good point. There is another side in here too: many people want to keep using the old systems they have learnt, instead of new better systems. Eg the backslash of Ribbon. It's pretty hard to innovate when on one wants anything to change.

bediger4000 14y ago
Is an "innovation" that nobody wants really innovation, or merely change-for-changes-sake? I think that if something is better, then people will want it, steal it even. Take those un-skippable previews on some DVDs: people cite them as reasons to scrounge up pirate versions of DVDs. Oh, and how about those abominable "region codes" on DVDs? Are those "innovation" or merely a monopoly-enabled form of price fixing?
- monkeyfacebag 14y ago
  > Is an "innovation" that nobody wants really innovation, or merely change-for-changes-sake? It's not clear, at least to me, that nobody wants Microsoft's innovations. I think it's more that they don't want them from Microsoft. Windows is a tough beast to change. The near ubiquity of the platform in the 90s and 00s means that there's a lot of people out there who "imprinted" on the Windows UI model. It doesn't just affect Microsoft, though it may affect them disproportionately because of brand association. While OS X is a screaming success now, Apple's transition from OS 9 was anything but. It took 3 major revisions of the software before it was usable and a lot of people hated it at the time. In contrast, Apple's introduction of iOS received a much warmer reception because there was no incumbent. Changing a major technology platform is hard.

Bootvis 14y ago

As a counterpoint to your enthousiasm: Windows 7 does a number of things better. But I recently went back to XP for a while and was amazed about my productivity. I'm not starting apps that much so the improved start menu isn't that special. Window management hasn't changed much and I think keyboard navigation seemed easier. I would pay a small amount to downgrade.

monkeyfacebag 14y ago
"Window management hasn't changed much" To be fair, I think this is true across platforms. On what platform is window management better than it was 5 years ago? Sure, Windows lacks a good way to get an overview of all open windows (such as Expose), but I honestly think Aero Snap is a killer feature for desktop use (especially because it supports the keyboard so well). When programming, I often like to have my editor and reference material side by side and Aero Snap make this literally a snap, which is great when the reference material changes frequently. Sadly, when programming, I also like to use a suite of GNU tools, which makes Windows a bit less compelling. Although you seem to think it's gotten less good, I still think keyboard navigation remains Windows' strongest competitive advantage over OS X. It's also the only thing Windows does better than Gnome Shell which is otherwise the best desktop UI I've experienced.
- Bootvis 14y ago
  I think we agree and I have to admit I under use Snap. It just doesn't come intuitive to me yet. I primarily dislike the keyboard navigation in the 'Open File...'-dialogs. Tab is not as effective anymore since it takes more hits to change focus from the folder view to the sidebar. Furthermore, and this is nitpicking, the number of tabs needed also seems to be context depended and the number of items in the sidebar has grown. I personally prefer StumpWM with KDE tools. I've never had a more effective keyboard experience.

mattmanser 14y ago

Oh yeah, I totally agree that it looks great, but £100 worth of great? Maybe £5 worth of great. Or even £10. And that's MS's problem, they've priced themselves out of their own market. The prices they charge are ridiculous and a little sad and pathetic that they think an OS, the thing that basically opens other programs, is really worth that much. I know that in reality it's much cheaper and provides more value than that. The expensive sticker price is the muppet's price, but that's the problem.