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Is it sarcasm? you should tag it. if it's not, and you are talking about recent "amnistia" events, it's hilarious, because some people in Catalunya were prosec

Is it sarcasm? you should tag it. if it's not, and you are talking about recent "amnistia" events, it's hilarious, because some people in Catalunya were prosecuted for crating a referendum, I guess for you that's not democratic and on the other hand exonerating those with charges related to it, turns the country into a dictatorship. What an irony. Btw, I'm not Catalan nor want Catalunya to part ways, far right wing narratives like the one you present only create more and more "independentistas".

pvaldes 3y ago
> some people in Catalunya were prosecuted for crating a referendum, I guess for you that's not democratic The "referendum" was obviously not democratic. You seem to have doubts still about that, so let me kindly illustrate you, about how real democracies work. There is not a single democracy, not a single one, where common people can replace unilaterally the powers of the state. Democracy does not mean that my friends and me can "vote" if we take your house and properties and chase you off, or don't do it (This is exactly what they were trying with the majority of the population in Catalonia). I can't create my own taxes, or decide that I am too beautiful to pay the taxes that I dislike. I can't replace the police and start driving like a mad in the highway while shooting people. I can't build my own army, or trial somebody unilaterally acting as prosecutor and judge. And of course I can't start an election, specially one that requires people to vote in a f*g cardboard urn, placed in the headquarters or a f*g political party. The power to start elections lies in the elected president. Period. The state has the monopoly of a lot of things. If you start elections by yourself is, first, a farce, and second, not democratic.
- david-gpu 3y ago
  > And of course I can't start an election, specially one that requires people to vote in a f*g cardboard urn, placed in the headquarters or a f*g political party You weaken your argument tremendously by using slurs like these.
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    The "democracy must allow scam referendums" fallacy has been discussed "ad nauseam" before. Here and on many other places. The term has been heavily weaponized by separatists and some of us are really upset to hear that BS again. Is like groundhog day. In any case is time to shut my mouth with apologies by the rambling. Lets better return to the real theme here.
- alfonsodev 3y ago
  > You seem to have doubts still about that, so let me kindly illustrate you, about how real democracies work. oh well... thank you, but I'd rather go other places to illustrate myself than reading someone angry on the internet. > The power to start elections lies in the elected president. Period. The state has the monopoly of a lot of things. If you start elections by yourself is, first, a farce, and second, not democratic. I'm sure you know the difference between referendum and election, so I won't kindly illustrate you.
germandiago 3y ago
I support independentist or non-independentist thinking and rights. What I cannot support is to violate the law in every other neighborhood at convenience. If we all did what Cataluña does in Spain (the Constitution forbids this kind of referendums and it was supported by 88% of the population. You cannot come and suddenly start to do these things when not even in Cataluña and after 40 years of institution colonization you do not have even 50% of support. That is just playing stupid games that can create civil conflicts. As I said, I am not against independence. But we have laws. If they say through law they cannot, maybe they are not doing a good enough job for their cause or people just do not wish it as much. That is why after doing a lot of things, I won't give details here but believe me, MANY, they did not reach even 50%. This separation according to the law should be voted by all spanish. Even more: if they won by 51%, independent forever? Will they let people do a referendum to join back to Spain? No, it makes no sense how they are doing things. They just do not have enough support. I am spanish, I am the son of people from Cataluña. Careful with what you believe from what you hear around. Inside the law, ok. Outside of the law, not ok. Otherwise many people will have lots of reasons to workaround laws they do not like, right? Promote changes in the law, ok. But not this cheating that will only create bigger problems, in Cataluña itself even more than in the rest of Spain. Half of the people or more are not supporting this.

pvaldes 3y ago

> some people in Catalunya were prosecuted for crating a referendum, I guess for you that's not democratic The "referendum" was obviously not democratic. You seem to have doubts still about that, so let me kindly illustrate you, about how real democracies work. There is not a single democracy, not a single one, where common people can replace unilaterally the powers of the state. Democracy does not mean that my friends and me can "vote" if we take your house and properties and chase you off, or don't do it (This is exactly what they were trying with the majority of the population in Catalonia). I can't create my own taxes, or decide that I am too beautiful to pay the taxes that I dislike. I can't replace the police and start driving like a mad in the highway while shooting people. I can't build my own army, or trial somebody unilaterally acting as prosecutor and judge. And of course I can't start an election, specially one that requires people to vote in a f*g cardboard urn, placed in the headquarters or a f*g political party. The power to start elections lies in the elected president. Period. The state has the monopoly of a lot of things. If you start elections by yourself is, first, a farce, and second, not democratic.

david-gpu 3y ago
> And of course I can't start an election, specially one that requires people to vote in a f*g cardboard urn, placed in the headquarters or a f*g political party You weaken your argument tremendously by using slurs like these.
- pvaldes 3y ago
  The "democracy must allow scam referendums" fallacy has been discussed "ad nauseam" before. Here and on many other places. The term has been heavily weaponized by separatists and some of us are really upset to hear that BS again. Is like groundhog day. In any case is time to shut my mouth with apologies by the rambling. Lets better return to the real theme here.
alfonsodev 3y ago
> You seem to have doubts still about that, so let me kindly illustrate you, about how real democracies work. oh well... thank you, but I'd rather go other places to illustrate myself than reading someone angry on the internet. > The power to start elections lies in the elected president. Period. The state has the monopoly of a lot of things. If you start elections by yourself is, first, a farce, and second, not democratic. I'm sure you know the difference between referendum and election, so I won't kindly illustrate you.

germandiago 3y ago

I support independentist or non-independentist thinking and rights. What I cannot support is to violate the law in every other neighborhood at convenience. If we all did what Cataluña does in Spain (the Constitution forbids this kind of referendums and it was supported by 88% of the population. You cannot come and suddenly start to do these things when not even in Cataluña and after 40 years of institution colonization you do not have even 50% of support. That is just playing stupid games that can create civil conflicts. As I said, I am not against independence. But we have laws. If they say through law they cannot, maybe they are not doing a good enough job for their cause or people just do not wish it as much. That is why after doing a lot of things, I won't give details here but believe me, MANY, they did not reach even 50%. This separation according to the law should be voted by all spanish. Even more: if they won by 51%, independent forever? Will they let people do a referendum to join back to Spain? No, it makes no sense how they are doing things. They just do not have enough support. I am spanish, I am the son of people from Cataluña. Careful with what you believe from what you hear around. Inside the law, ok. Outside of the law, not ok. Otherwise many people will have lots of reasons to workaround laws they do not like, right? Promote changes in the law, ok. But not this cheating that will only create bigger problems, in Cataluña itself even more than in the rest of Spain. Half of the people or more are not supporting this.