8 ms·

There must be IMHO. For these things what you usually have is an arrest as a minimum yet they let them go. On top of that it was made public. Spain is turning

There must be IMHO. For these things what you usually have is an arrest as a minimum yet they let them go. On top of that it was made public. Spain is turning at this moment, btw, in a dictatorship and I am not exaggerating. I am spanish. I am figuring out what to do and whether to leave or not. I have my family here so that's what keeps me here. Otherwise I would have left already.

toyg 3y ago
> Spain is turning at this moment, btw, in a dictatorship Seems a bit of a hyperbole for "Spain is under a fragile minority government". By that metric, the UK is a dictatorship in most years.
- HPsquared 3y ago
  Funnily enough, that word has been used to describe the UK system in particular. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_dictatorship https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_dictatorship
- germandiago 3y ago
  No, this is not what I am talking about. I am talking about putting all people from a single party in absolutely all powers and institutions, making a law for 7 votes to govern and claim an illegal amnistey and after that, the plan is to pass it through, to say the Constitution is dead (which requires, in theory 2/3 or 3/5 of the chamber support to be changed) and do it on an illegal backdoor. Of course, those changes are going to be what less than half of the people want and in the electoral program none of that was announced. There is a person negotiating how to put himself out of jail because our president needed 7 votes. I mean, it is as if I was negotiating to not enter the jail because I commit a crime. Institutions where he already put his people: - Fiscal General del Estado (Dolores Delgado, was a minister of socialist party) Responsible for pushing forward or not criminal causes against depending who. - Correos (important for the mail vote) a very good friend of his. - Supreme court (Conde-Pumpido), a socialist. - Indra, company counting the votes, there were moves to put a majority of the board from the socialist party. - Agencia EFE (a few days ago): for news, public agency. A socialist friend of his, well-known for flattering the party since ever and working in the pro-socialist media groups El Pais and Cadena Ser (Grupo Prisa) and Cuatro when it was Grupo Prisa (not anymore, now it is Media Set) - CIS, the national organism for surveys... who publishes the surveys for many topics, they manipulate the sentences to torture them to say what they want (in the question there is the trick) and publish national surveys for elections vote intention. - TVE (spanish television): they had for over a year a "unique administrator" which is a total abnormality, Rosa María Mateos, during the pandemic. - During the pandemic: a person filtering, in our faces, what topics and questions were asked in the "press conferences" if you can call it like that. For me it smelled more to discretional selection and censorship. They usually took questions from tiny regional media with priority to the national ones that everyone reads... Yes, a filter: I tell you who and what can be asked. - During the pandemic: 6 months the parlament closed. 2 illegal lockdowns, no consequences. - Now they are trying to put a socialist majority in the CGPJ (Consejo General del Poder Judicial) so that the illegal amnesty gets through. - Law for "freedom of speech" for influencers, so that they can be prosecuted more easily depending on what they say... promoted by the unions that support them (UGT, Comisiones obreras). - There is a bunch of "institutional advertisement" by which newspapers get a bunch of money per year directly from the government. Do you think they are independent after this? Do not make me laugh... 554 millions... https://www.vozpopuli.com/espana/maquinaria-sanchez-dispara-554-millones-gasto-publicidad-institucional-doble-rajoy.html https://www.vozpopuli.com/espana/maquinaria-sanchez-dispara-... And there is plenty, plenty more. There was even a scandal where Delcy Rodriguez, with forbidden entry to Europe for narcotrafic, from Venezuela, came with 40 suitcases that god knows what they contained, entered without a passport stamp (obviously) and those suitcases we do not have even an explanation yet... what happened? Nothing. They lied about it. Nothing happened, to noone: https://www.vozpopuli.com/espana/politica/embajada-venezuela-barajas-delcy-rodriguez_0_1327668359.html https://www.vozpopuli.com/espana/politica/embajada-venezuela... Believe me, they are building a dictatorship. It is not about minorities governing, it is about controlling absolutely all information flow, all opinion, and workarounding any "balance and check".
- vvillena 3y ago
  The Spanish right wing establishment isn't comfortable when not confidently in power, either by directly being in power, or by being sure whoever is in power wouldn't dare to change course on certain policies. This has been an issue for a long long time. The only new development is the emergence of a strong far right wing party, which seems to have driven the moderate right wing party away from the center, emboldening their statements to the point of hyperbole or further. The current Spanish government is a very fragile minority, but it was voted by 7 out of 9 party groups in Congress (that is everyone except the right wing and far right parties), and the executive power has people from five different parties. Quite exotic for a dictatorship indeed.
  - germandiago 3y ago
    You are obviating the "Ley d'Honnt" which basically overrepresents minorities. They have disproportionate representation. A regional party can have like 6-8 times more representation than a national one with the same amount of votes nominally speaking. It is legal, but makes no sense, more so taking into account that independentist parties are forbidden in Portugal or France and that here they not only are allowed (I can agree with that), on top of that they can oresent themselves to the national parlament and do national politics when their interest is to break the system (I do not agree with that). The law for overrepresentation was done to not smash minorities. However, what is happening is the exact opposite: minorities are driving the majority of people instead. Which is even worse and a privilege of a few over most.
    - vvillena 3y ago
      Taking stats from the past elections, the most voted party got 39% of the seats with 33% of the votes, and the second party got 34.5% of the seats with 31.7% of the votes. The third and fourth most voted parties got 9.4% and 8.8% of seats with a similar 12.4% and 12.3% of votes. These are all national parties, and it's well known that D'Hondt seat assignment reinforces the most voted parties and punishes everyone else, because the amount of seats in contention on most voting districts is too small. Regional parties have it easier because all their votes are in a small amount of regions, but this doesn't mean they are overrepresented: the percentages of votes and seats match quite well, with some parties being a bit above and others being a bit below. This is because within their regions, these parties are not minorities, so D'Hondt doesn't punish them. The one concession the Spanish system gives to regional parties is a better chance to form their own parliamentary group (important for debate time when discussing laws). Anyway, I agree that having 50 general election districts (one per province) results in skewed votes. This was done by design as an attempt to have an easier-to-control two party system, and enshrined in the Spanish constitution, so it's not easy to change. It's probably easier to change provinces themselves than the constitution in the current political climate. For instance, merging all provinces in each region together would solve most issues with the voting system, as it would increase the amount of seats in contention. Regarding the argument about this being a government by a minority of people: the parties that voted for the current government represent roughly 50.5% of the total votes. The current opposition parties represent 45.6% of total votes.
- pvaldes 3y ago
  If this is a dictatorship then is a very peculiar one, with the power more split than never in the entire democracy. Literally tens of political parties sharing power in the government. Any of them could let fall the "dictator" at any time. Either this is the opposite to dictatorship, or maybe we will need to redefine a lot of classical democracies with most power concentrated in one party at a time. About the right, they only can blame themselves. Is very ironic that they are blaming everybody for the same own situation what they, and only they, could have been stopped at any time. They didn't even tried to play. Choose to stop breathing instead. And don't make me start talking about the Doñana's national park fiasco. Probably one of the most stupid right party plots to assure to lose voters weeks before an election.
  - germandiago 3y ago
    I think you only look at the chamber. You know there are three powers in a state right? Pedro Sánchez has more power now than the old socialist party or PP with qualified majority (mayoría absoluta) ever had because he made all institutions his particular home at his very service. Violating the most basic ethic rules.
    - AshamedCaptain 3y ago
      > Pedro Sánchez has more power now than the old socialist party or PP with qualified majority (mayoría absoluta) ever had because he made all institutions his particular home at his very service These arguments are empty. The GP was claiming "Pedro Sánchez" has extremely little power as it is on a minority government and seemingly one of the smallest ones in the history of his party, all verifiable facts. You counterargue by claiming that he is making all institutions dance at his tune. This is a circular argument. How does he exactly get the power to make "institutions his particular home at his very service" if he has the least power to do so, _even less power_ than on his previous term? I find it ridiculous that from all angles this looks like an absolutely powerless and extremely fragile do-nothing coalition (as some of the self-determination parties are as right-wing as they get, and therefore unlike to allow him to do anything even remotely left-wing), which looks to be disintegrating as we speak (if the news from my country are to believed), and yet at the same time I read claims of a "dictatorship". What is it that you see that apparently no one else in the world does?
jfernandezr 3y ago
Spanish here. You're overtly exaggerating, Spain is not becoming a dictatorship. This is the right and far-right having a tantrum because they've not been able to secure a government. Go spread your propaganda elsewhere.
- gafage 3y ago
  That's a bit of an over-simplification of what actually happened these weeks. Or a tremendous over-simplification, rather. Not that I really care about the outcome (two parties could've won, and they are both progressive, so I will be unhappy either way), but the methods have crossed a few red lines.
  - alfonsodev 3y ago
    might be an over-simplification but is right. Every year there are "indultos" (pardons?) happening, the famous Aznar's ones[1], and Rajoy's infamous "aministia fiscal"[2] but I guess is only now when it's convenient to push that narrative, no protests whatsoever for the other cases. Amnistia for tax evaders, it is democracy. Amnistia for those protesting making a performance-like referedum (everyone knew it would not actual effect), that's not democracy. It's a logic that I can not comprehend, I only can explain it if you consume so much mass media that you actually believe everything that is thrown at you. [1] https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/gobierno-aznar-indulto-dia-personas-1-432-independentismo-quiere-amnistiar_1_10516718.html https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/gobierno-aznar-indulto-dia.... [2] https://www.eldiario.es/economia/rato-franco-narco-100-beneficiarios-amnistia-fiscal-rajoy-han-salido-luz_1_10709088.html https://www.eldiario.es/economia/rato-franco-narco-100-benef...
    - gafage 3y ago
      It's not the same when you do it because you need it to be the president. I don't agree with pardons; it's something that simply shouldn't exist in this day and age. It doesn't matter to me what brand of progressivism does it.
    - germandiago 3y ago
pas 3y ago
> [into] a dictatorship how? forming a coalition seems to be the opposite of dictatorship, no?
- germandiago 3y ago
  Not sure if you are spanish. I know how my representation system works very well but it is not even about that. It is about workarounding and putting all friends in the whole apparatus. See one of my comments above to see how many people from the socialist party have been put by government decision to manage highest position related to propaganda, justice system, etc. when socialist party had hardly representation compared to any other government and the story repeats again. The amount of abuse they did is really, really bad IMHO. The problem is the system also, yes. But it is more than that only. They think institutions are their private property or something like no other national party so far IMHO.
  - pas 3y ago
    Hungarian. We have seen it from VIP seats how the populist ideological blob ate everything, and how uncompromising uncooperativeness from weak opposition prevented them from even achieving an effective minority status. (So the blob has absolute majority in the legislature again, yeey.)
alfonsodev 3y ago
Is it sarcasm? you should tag it. if it's not, and you are talking about recent "amnistia" events, it's hilarious, because some people in Catalunya were prosecuted for crating a referendum, I guess for you that's not democratic and on the other hand exonerating those with charges related to it, turns the country into a dictatorship. What an irony. Btw, I'm not Catalan nor want Catalunya to part ways, far right wing narratives like the one you present only create more and more "independentistas".
- pvaldes 3y ago
  > some people in Catalunya were prosecuted for crating a referendum, I guess for you that's not democratic The "referendum" was obviously not democratic. You seem to have doubts still about that, so let me kindly illustrate you, about how real democracies work. There is not a single democracy, not a single one, where common people can replace unilaterally the powers of the state. Democracy does not mean that my friends and me can "vote" if we take your house and properties and chase you off, or don't do it (This is exactly what they were trying with the majority of the population in Catalonia). I can't create my own taxes, or decide that I am too beautiful to pay the taxes that I dislike. I can't replace the police and start driving like a mad in the highway while shooting people. I can't build my own army, or trial somebody unilaterally acting as prosecutor and judge. And of course I can't start an election, specially one that requires people to vote in a f*g cardboard urn, placed in the headquarters or a f*g political party. The power to start elections lies in the elected president. Period. The state has the monopoly of a lot of things. If you start elections by yourself is, first, a farce, and second, not democratic.
  - david-gpu 3y ago
    > And of course I can't start an election, specially one that requires people to vote in a f*g cardboard urn, placed in the headquarters or a f*g political party You weaken your argument tremendously by using slurs like these.
    - pvaldes 3y ago
      The "democracy must allow scam referendums" fallacy has been discussed "ad nauseam" before. Here and on many other places. The term has been heavily weaponized by separatists and some of us are really upset to hear that BS again. Is like groundhog day. In any case is time to shut my mouth with apologies by the rambling. Lets better return to the real theme here.

toyg 3y ago

> Spain is turning at this moment, btw, in a dictatorship Seems a bit of a hyperbole for "Spain is under a fragile minority government". By that metric, the UK is a dictatorship in most years.

HPsquared 3y ago
Funnily enough, that word has been used to describe the UK system in particular. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_dictatorship https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_dictatorship
germandiago 3y ago
No, this is not what I am talking about. I am talking about putting all people from a single party in absolutely all powers and institutions, making a law for 7 votes to govern and claim an illegal amnistey and after that, the plan is to pass it through, to say the Constitution is dead (which requires, in theory 2/3 or 3/5 of the chamber support to be changed) and do it on an illegal backdoor. Of course, those changes are going to be what less than half of the people want and in the electoral program none of that was announced. There is a person negotiating how to put himself out of jail because our president needed 7 votes. I mean, it is as if I was negotiating to not enter the jail because I commit a crime. Institutions where he already put his people: - Fiscal General del Estado (Dolores Delgado, was a minister of socialist party) Responsible for pushing forward or not criminal causes against depending who. - Correos (important for the mail vote) a very good friend of his. - Supreme court (Conde-Pumpido), a socialist. - Indra, company counting the votes, there were moves to put a majority of the board from the socialist party. - Agencia EFE (a few days ago): for news, public agency. A socialist friend of his, well-known for flattering the party since ever and working in the pro-socialist media groups El Pais and Cadena Ser (Grupo Prisa) and Cuatro when it was Grupo Prisa (not anymore, now it is Media Set) - CIS, the national organism for surveys... who publishes the surveys for many topics, they manipulate the sentences to torture them to say what they want (in the question there is the trick) and publish national surveys for elections vote intention. - TVE (spanish television): they had for over a year a "unique administrator" which is a total abnormality, Rosa María Mateos, during the pandemic. - During the pandemic: a person filtering, in our faces, what topics and questions were asked in the "press conferences" if you can call it like that. For me it smelled more to discretional selection and censorship. They usually took questions from tiny regional media with priority to the national ones that everyone reads... Yes, a filter: I tell you who and what can be asked. - During the pandemic: 6 months the parlament closed. 2 illegal lockdowns, no consequences. - Now they are trying to put a socialist majority in the CGPJ (Consejo General del Poder Judicial) so that the illegal amnesty gets through. - Law for "freedom of speech" for influencers, so that they can be prosecuted more easily depending on what they say... promoted by the unions that support them (UGT, Comisiones obreras). - There is a bunch of "institutional advertisement" by which newspapers get a bunch of money per year directly from the government. Do you think they are independent after this? Do not make me laugh... 554 millions... https://www.vozpopuli.com/espana/maquinaria-sanchez-dispara-554-millones-gasto-publicidad-institucional-doble-rajoy.html https://www.vozpopuli.com/espana/maquinaria-sanchez-dispara-... And there is plenty, plenty more. There was even a scandal where Delcy Rodriguez, with forbidden entry to Europe for narcotrafic, from Venezuela, came with 40 suitcases that god knows what they contained, entered without a passport stamp (obviously) and those suitcases we do not have even an explanation yet... what happened? Nothing. They lied about it. Nothing happened, to noone: https://www.vozpopuli.com/espana/politica/embajada-venezuela-barajas-delcy-rodriguez_0_1327668359.html https://www.vozpopuli.com/espana/politica/embajada-venezuela... Believe me, they are building a dictatorship. It is not about minorities governing, it is about controlling absolutely all information flow, all opinion, and workarounding any "balance and check".
vvillena 3y ago
The Spanish right wing establishment isn't comfortable when not confidently in power, either by directly being in power, or by being sure whoever is in power wouldn't dare to change course on certain policies. This has been an issue for a long long time. The only new development is the emergence of a strong far right wing party, which seems to have driven the moderate right wing party away from the center, emboldening their statements to the point of hyperbole or further. The current Spanish government is a very fragile minority, but it was voted by 7 out of 9 party groups in Congress (that is everyone except the right wing and far right parties), and the executive power has people from five different parties. Quite exotic for a dictatorship indeed.
- germandiago 3y ago
  You are obviating the "Ley d'Honnt" which basically overrepresents minorities. They have disproportionate representation. A regional party can have like 6-8 times more representation than a national one with the same amount of votes nominally speaking. It is legal, but makes no sense, more so taking into account that independentist parties are forbidden in Portugal or France and that here they not only are allowed (I can agree with that), on top of that they can oresent themselves to the national parlament and do national politics when their interest is to break the system (I do not agree with that). The law for overrepresentation was done to not smash minorities. However, what is happening is the exact opposite: minorities are driving the majority of people instead. Which is even worse and a privilege of a few over most.
  - vvillena 3y ago
    Taking stats from the past elections, the most voted party got 39% of the seats with 33% of the votes, and the second party got 34.5% of the seats with 31.7% of the votes. The third and fourth most voted parties got 9.4% and 8.8% of seats with a similar 12.4% and 12.3% of votes. These are all national parties, and it's well known that D'Hondt seat assignment reinforces the most voted parties and punishes everyone else, because the amount of seats in contention on most voting districts is too small. Regional parties have it easier because all their votes are in a small amount of regions, but this doesn't mean they are overrepresented: the percentages of votes and seats match quite well, with some parties being a bit above and others being a bit below. This is because within their regions, these parties are not minorities, so D'Hondt doesn't punish them. The one concession the Spanish system gives to regional parties is a better chance to form their own parliamentary group (important for debate time when discussing laws). Anyway, I agree that having 50 general election districts (one per province) results in skewed votes. This was done by design as an attempt to have an easier-to-control two party system, and enshrined in the Spanish constitution, so it's not easy to change. It's probably easier to change provinces themselves than the constitution in the current political climate. For instance, merging all provinces in each region together would solve most issues with the voting system, as it would increase the amount of seats in contention. Regarding the argument about this being a government by a minority of people: the parties that voted for the current government represent roughly 50.5% of the total votes. The current opposition parties represent 45.6% of total votes.
pvaldes 3y ago
If this is a dictatorship then is a very peculiar one, with the power more split than never in the entire democracy. Literally tens of political parties sharing power in the government. Any of them could let fall the "dictator" at any time. Either this is the opposite to dictatorship, or maybe we will need to redefine a lot of classical democracies with most power concentrated in one party at a time. About the right, they only can blame themselves. Is very ironic that they are blaming everybody for the same own situation what they, and only they, could have been stopped at any time. They didn't even tried to play. Choose to stop breathing instead. And don't make me start talking about the Doñana's national park fiasco. Probably one of the most stupid right party plots to assure to lose voters weeks before an election.
- germandiago 3y ago
  I think you only look at the chamber. You know there are three powers in a state right? Pedro Sánchez has more power now than the old socialist party or PP with qualified majority (mayoría absoluta) ever had because he made all institutions his particular home at his very service. Violating the most basic ethic rules.
  - AshamedCaptain 3y ago
    > Pedro Sánchez has more power now than the old socialist party or PP with qualified majority (mayoría absoluta) ever had because he made all institutions his particular home at his very service These arguments are empty. The GP was claiming "Pedro Sánchez" has extremely little power as it is on a minority government and seemingly one of the smallest ones in the history of his party, all verifiable facts. You counterargue by claiming that he is making all institutions dance at his tune. This is a circular argument. How does he exactly get the power to make "institutions his particular home at his very service" if he has the least power to do so, _even less power_ than on his previous term? I find it ridiculous that from all angles this looks like an absolutely powerless and extremely fragile do-nothing coalition (as some of the self-determination parties are as right-wing as they get, and therefore unlike to allow him to do anything even remotely left-wing), which looks to be disintegrating as we speak (if the news from my country are to believed), and yet at the same time I read claims of a "dictatorship". What is it that you see that apparently no one else in the world does?

jfernandezr 3y ago

Spanish here. You're overtly exaggerating, Spain is not becoming a dictatorship. This is the right and far-right having a tantrum because they've not been able to secure a government. Go spread your propaganda elsewhere.

gafage 3y ago
That's a bit of an over-simplification of what actually happened these weeks. Or a tremendous over-simplification, rather. Not that I really care about the outcome (two parties could've won, and they are both progressive, so I will be unhappy either way), but the methods have crossed a few red lines.
- alfonsodev 3y ago
  might be an over-simplification but is right. Every year there are "indultos" (pardons?) happening, the famous Aznar's ones[1], and Rajoy's infamous "aministia fiscal"[2] but I guess is only now when it's convenient to push that narrative, no protests whatsoever for the other cases. Amnistia for tax evaders, it is democracy. Amnistia for those protesting making a performance-like referedum (everyone knew it would not actual effect), that's not democracy. It's a logic that I can not comprehend, I only can explain it if you consume so much mass media that you actually believe everything that is thrown at you. [1] https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/gobierno-aznar-indulto-dia-personas-1-432-independentismo-quiere-amnistiar_1_10516718.html https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/gobierno-aznar-indulto-dia.... [2] https://www.eldiario.es/economia/rato-franco-narco-100-beneficiarios-amnistia-fiscal-rajoy-han-salido-luz_1_10709088.html https://www.eldiario.es/economia/rato-franco-narco-100-benef...
  - gafage 3y ago
    It's not the same when you do it because you need it to be the president. I don't agree with pardons; it's something that simply shouldn't exist in this day and age. It doesn't matter to me what brand of progressivism does it.
  - germandiago 3y ago

pas 3y ago

> [into] a dictatorship how? forming a coalition seems to be the opposite of dictatorship, no?

germandiago 3y ago
Not sure if you are spanish. I know how my representation system works very well but it is not even about that. It is about workarounding and putting all friends in the whole apparatus. See one of my comments above to see how many people from the socialist party have been put by government decision to manage highest position related to propaganda, justice system, etc. when socialist party had hardly representation compared to any other government and the story repeats again. The amount of abuse they did is really, really bad IMHO. The problem is the system also, yes. But it is more than that only. They think institutions are their private property or something like no other national party so far IMHO.
- pas 3y ago
  Hungarian. We have seen it from VIP seats how the populist ideological blob ate everything, and how uncompromising uncooperativeness from weak opposition prevented them from even achieving an effective minority status. (So the blob has absolute majority in the legislature again, yeey.)

alfonsodev 3y ago

Is it sarcasm? you should tag it. if it's not, and you are talking about recent "amnistia" events, it's hilarious, because some people in Catalunya were prosecuted for crating a referendum, I guess for you that's not democratic and on the other hand exonerating those with charges related to it, turns the country into a dictatorship. What an irony. Btw, I'm not Catalan nor want Catalunya to part ways, far right wing narratives like the one you present only create more and more "independentistas".

pvaldes 3y ago
> some people in Catalunya were prosecuted for crating a referendum, I guess for you that's not democratic The "referendum" was obviously not democratic. You seem to have doubts still about that, so let me kindly illustrate you, about how real democracies work. There is not a single democracy, not a single one, where common people can replace unilaterally the powers of the state. Democracy does not mean that my friends and me can "vote" if we take your house and properties and chase you off, or don't do it (This is exactly what they were trying with the majority of the population in Catalonia). I can't create my own taxes, or decide that I am too beautiful to pay the taxes that I dislike. I can't replace the police and start driving like a mad in the highway while shooting people. I can't build my own army, or trial somebody unilaterally acting as prosecutor and judge. And of course I can't start an election, specially one that requires people to vote in a f*g cardboard urn, placed in the headquarters or a f*g political party. The power to start elections lies in the elected president. Period. The state has the monopoly of a lot of things. If you start elections by yourself is, first, a farce, and second, not democratic.
- david-gpu 3y ago
  > And of course I can't start an election, specially one that requires people to vote in a f*g cardboard urn, placed in the headquarters or a f*g political party You weaken your argument tremendously by using slurs like these.
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    The "democracy must allow scam referendums" fallacy has been discussed "ad nauseam" before. Here and on many other places. The term has been heavily weaponized by separatists and some of us are really upset to hear that BS again. Is like groundhog day. In any case is time to shut my mouth with apologies by the rambling. Lets better return to the real theme here.