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"Whatever this project needs me to be" I'll never put in 80 hours in a week for you. I'm sorry, but there are more important things in life than programming. M

"Whatever this project needs me to be" I'll never put in 80 hours in a week for you. I'm sorry, but there are more important things in life than programming. Maybe I'll never be the best programmer, but I think I'll be a better person.

blindhippo 15y ago
Put in 80 hours a week on someone elses project - sure, totally get this attitude. But if you aren't willing to put extra hours into your own project (or others who you believe in) - then you will never be great. I work 40 hours a week at a day job with a local startup. I'm not a founder, nor employee one - I do have some decent stock but really I just work for the salary. My passion comes in the extra projects I take on for myself. I do it because it honestly interests me and isn't work - it's a hobby as well. This whole "never work over 40 hours" is very humorous to me. Work what you feel like - no one else gives a damn what you do.
- adestefan 15y ago
  The problem is that people do give a damn. People automatically assume that because I don't want to work over 40 hours means that I'm just in it for the money/job/whatever. They automatically assume that because I don't have 20 projects on github, I'm not active on twitter, nor do I have a blog that's updated twice a day that I'm not passionate about my profession. They automatically assume that because I don't go to 4 meetups a week nor contribute to their favorite open source software every other day, that I don't don't care about the community. Just because I don't do these things, it does not mean I'm not a passionate programmer. People are also confusing the difference between work and pleasure. Just because I'll only put in 40 hours of work in a week, does not mean that I'll not program on the nights/weekends.
  - angersock 15y ago
    Well, let's be honest then. If you don't contribute to the projects, if you don't spread your knowledge, if you don't give away your source... ...what good are you? What have you done? How are you anything other than a consumer of other people's work and knowledge?
    - peacemaker 15y ago
      "what good are you?" That's just an awful way to judge someone. Just because he chooses not to give away his work, or do any side projects at all does not mean he is "no good". There is more to life than writing open source code you know!
    - huckfinnaafb 15y ago
      Creating software that helps whoever uses it is the only immediate requisite for being a useful programmer.
    - adestefan 15y ago
      Where did I ever say that I didn't do those things? I'm railing against the people that think that just because that's not what you do with every day and every hour of your life means that you're not passionate about it.
      - angersock 15y ago
        "Where did I ever say that I didn't do those things?" meet "Just because I don't do these things, it does not mean I'm not a passionate programmer." I apologize if I incorrectly read your statement. As for passion: I mean, a lot of people are passionate about Jesus, and are passionate about the Chicago Bears, and are passionate about Jersey Shore. That doesn't mean that they're doing anything genuinely useful. The problem here is that it isn't enough to be passionate. You have to be doing Good--and if you look at my original wording, that was very much what I asked (albeit with poor capitalization): what Good are you? Again, if all you do is dump code into the maw of some proprietary system without writing about it or trying to share your knowledge or give away your tools, well, you haven't really helped anyone who isn't a user of your project, right?
    - ejp 15y ago
      I'm sure his children don't see his worth as a father improved by the time he spends coding open source instead of interacting with them. A similar thing can be said for every other non-programmer he interacts with. Perhaps he won't leave the programming legacy that you or he would like, but that doesn't discount the value of the other legacies he may create in the meantime. (Apologies if my gender bias above is incorrect.) I think that the 501 argument at its core is that we shouldn't judge a programmer's personal value solely by their programming. Programming is the one thing that everyone in this argument has in common, so it's easy to turn it into the only metric by which we judge people. Any other metric might not apply to all of us, so it would be of limited use. I think 501 developers are tired of being scorned or feeling guilty for not dedicating themselves to programming all the time when other segments of their life need attention too. But let's face it - if they weren't passionate about programming, they would hardly take the time out to make the argument.
lucisferre 15y ago
I can't think of a better person than those who find something they truly love and are passionate about. No one said you should put 80 hours a week into any one thing or for any one company (lets face it no one pays enough to be worth 80 hours of your time). But the 501 manefesto comes across as a whining from the "just a job" crowd. I almost never put more than 40 hours a week into my "job". But I love it and I know I do great work. I've never found anyone has judged me for when I go home, but if they did, I'd put them in their place right quick. I do put probably another 10h into side projects, maybe another 10h or more reading, being involved in user groups and talking to people (which I love) and blogging whenever I stop procrastinating. I love doing all this. I also love my family, I play with my daughter every day and I see my friends all the time. Yet amazingly, in all that I still find an inordinate amount of time to waste watching terrible TV shows. The point is there is more time in our lives to do awesome than the 501 developer seems to want to admit. If there is anyone who deserves pity it is anyone who does anything because it's "just a job". I can't say I'll have much regret about all the time I've spent coding, and learning and attending meetups, but I can say how much regret I would have doing "just a job" for 40 hours a week. Exactly 40 hours a week worth.
- adestefan 15y ago
  I think that's the point that everyone is missing. Just because you put in 40 hours at your job, doesn't mean you're not passionate! Because at the end of the day the 8 hours I give to someone for a paycheck "is just a job."
  - lucisferre 15y ago
    That's where the problem lies with this 501 developer manefesto. In an effort to slam overtimers he's also globbed in those who simply have passion and want to use their free time doing something they love. It's a terrible manefesto in my opinion.
    - ArtB 15y ago
      I think the point of the manifesto is reject the continuous raising of the bar that enthusiastic programmers bring to the community. An accountant doesn't need to compete with someone who is passionate about accountanting on the side. Neither does a welder, a shopkeep, or a factory. These people just want to put in 8 and forget about it. They don't want to put in effort to update their skills, they don't want to learn a new framework, they want to do the least outside of work they they can and still collect a paycheque. On one hand I worked at a place where no one had learned how to use Java generics since they had been on 1.4 until recently, and they never saw the need to learn (this was a couple of months ago). On the other hand if I was only an accountant since it offered the best prospects for my family I'd probably want to be reminded of it as little as possible.

blindhippo 15y ago

Put in 80 hours a week on someone elses project - sure, totally get this attitude. But if you aren't willing to put extra hours into your own project (or others who you believe in) - then you will never be great. I work 40 hours a week at a day job with a local startup. I'm not a founder, nor employee one - I do have some decent stock but really I just work for the salary. My passion comes in the extra projects I take on for myself. I do it because it honestly interests me and isn't work - it's a hobby as well. This whole "never work over 40 hours" is very humorous to me. Work what you feel like - no one else gives a damn what you do.

adestefan 15y ago
The problem is that people do give a damn. People automatically assume that because I don't want to work over 40 hours means that I'm just in it for the money/job/whatever. They automatically assume that because I don't have 20 projects on github, I'm not active on twitter, nor do I have a blog that's updated twice a day that I'm not passionate about my profession. They automatically assume that because I don't go to 4 meetups a week nor contribute to their favorite open source software every other day, that I don't don't care about the community. Just because I don't do these things, it does not mean I'm not a passionate programmer. People are also confusing the difference between work and pleasure. Just because I'll only put in 40 hours of work in a week, does not mean that I'll not program on the nights/weekends.
- angersock 15y ago
  Well, let's be honest then. If you don't contribute to the projects, if you don't spread your knowledge, if you don't give away your source... ...what good are you? What have you done? How are you anything other than a consumer of other people's work and knowledge?
  - peacemaker 15y ago
    "what good are you?" That's just an awful way to judge someone. Just because he chooses not to give away his work, or do any side projects at all does not mean he is "no good". There is more to life than writing open source code you know!
  - huckfinnaafb 15y ago
    Creating software that helps whoever uses it is the only immediate requisite for being a useful programmer.
  - adestefan 15y ago
    Where did I ever say that I didn't do those things? I'm railing against the people that think that just because that's not what you do with every day and every hour of your life means that you're not passionate about it.
    - angersock 15y ago
      "Where did I ever say that I didn't do those things?" meet "Just because I don't do these things, it does not mean I'm not a passionate programmer." I apologize if I incorrectly read your statement. As for passion: I mean, a lot of people are passionate about Jesus, and are passionate about the Chicago Bears, and are passionate about Jersey Shore. That doesn't mean that they're doing anything genuinely useful. The problem here is that it isn't enough to be passionate. You have to be doing Good--and if you look at my original wording, that was very much what I asked (albeit with poor capitalization): what Good are you? Again, if all you do is dump code into the maw of some proprietary system without writing about it or trying to share your knowledge or give away your tools, well, you haven't really helped anyone who isn't a user of your project, right?
  - ejp 15y ago
    I'm sure his children don't see his worth as a father improved by the time he spends coding open source instead of interacting with them. A similar thing can be said for every other non-programmer he interacts with. Perhaps he won't leave the programming legacy that you or he would like, but that doesn't discount the value of the other legacies he may create in the meantime. (Apologies if my gender bias above is incorrect.) I think that the 501 argument at its core is that we shouldn't judge a programmer's personal value solely by their programming. Programming is the one thing that everyone in this argument has in common, so it's easy to turn it into the only metric by which we judge people. Any other metric might not apply to all of us, so it would be of limited use. I think 501 developers are tired of being scorned or feeling guilty for not dedicating themselves to programming all the time when other segments of their life need attention too. But let's face it - if they weren't passionate about programming, they would hardly take the time out to make the argument.

lucisferre 15y ago

I can't think of a better person than those who find something they truly love and are passionate about. No one said you should put 80 hours a week into any one thing or for any one company (lets face it no one pays enough to be worth 80 hours of your time). But the 501 manefesto comes across as a whining from the "just a job" crowd. I almost never put more than 40 hours a week into my "job". But I love it and I know I do great work. I've never found anyone has judged me for when I go home, but if they did, I'd put them in their place right quick. I do put probably another 10h into side projects, maybe another 10h or more reading, being involved in user groups and talking to people (which I love) and blogging whenever I stop procrastinating. I love doing all this. I also love my family, I play with my daughter every day and I see my friends all the time. Yet amazingly, in all that I still find an inordinate amount of time to waste watching terrible TV shows. The point is there is more time in our lives to do awesome than the 501 developer seems to want to admit. If there is anyone who deserves pity it is anyone who does anything because it's "just a job". I can't say I'll have much regret about all the time I've spent coding, and learning and attending meetups, but I can say how much regret I would have doing "just a job" for 40 hours a week. Exactly 40 hours a week worth.

adestefan 15y ago
I think that's the point that everyone is missing. Just because you put in 40 hours at your job, doesn't mean you're not passionate! Because at the end of the day the 8 hours I give to someone for a paycheck "is just a job."
- lucisferre 15y ago
  That's where the problem lies with this 501 developer manefesto. In an effort to slam overtimers he's also globbed in those who simply have passion and want to use their free time doing something they love. It's a terrible manefesto in my opinion.
  - ArtB 15y ago
    I think the point of the manifesto is reject the continuous raising of the bar that enthusiastic programmers bring to the community. An accountant doesn't need to compete with someone who is passionate about accountanting on the side. Neither does a welder, a shopkeep, or a factory. These people just want to put in 8 and forget about it. They don't want to put in effort to update their skills, they don't want to learn a new framework, they want to do the least outside of work they they can and still collect a paycheque. On one hand I worked at a place where no one had learned how to use Java generics since they had been on 1.4 until recently, and they never saw the need to learn (this was a couple of months ago). On the other hand if I was only an accountant since it offered the best prospects for my family I'd probably want to be reminded of it as little as possible.