3 ms·

> Am I to understand that official orders that instruct telco providers to provide the private communication data of people, are transmitted as smushes of pigme

> Am I to understand that official orders that instruct telco providers to provide the private communication data of people, are transmitted as smushes of pigment on thin pieces of wood-paste, Yes. Or a PDF attachment on an e-mail, possibly scanned from something that was printed a few minutes earlier because someone had to sign it with a pen. > trivially verify with the ordering entities public key You're underestimating the complexity of establishing a PKI infrastructure to handle federal, state and local authorities, signalling which keys have what exact authority, revoking compromised keys, … and then doing tech support for some redneck judge that owns more guns than electronic devices.

hnfong 3y ago
Having a cert from a validated *.gov CA doesn’t seem that complicated, or at least, should be “just as complicated” as setting up properly TLs certs. Getting the tech adopted might be difficult (like you say some judges may not see the point of it) but the PKI doesn’t have to be super complicated… Having different authorities provide signatures for different types of documents may or may not be needed, in theory it is more secure, but just checking the domain name suffix should be a good start. And every tech literate person has a general idea how to tell “valid” domain names from phishing sites, so the scheme translates well
- ben_w 3y ago
  > Having a cert from a validated *.gov CA doesn’t seem that complicated, or at least, should be “just as complicated” as setting up properly TLs certs. You're not wrong, but you are overestimating the tech skill level of the average non techie. I'm travelling right now, and a surprising fraction of restaurant websites here aren't https.
  - hnfong 3y ago
    Yes, but we're talking about the judiciary here, not restaurants... Surely they'd have a minimal IT department...
    - ben_w 3y ago
      You might hope so, but I have no reason to think they are magically more ept than anyone else. I don't know much about the American ones, but the British ones are complaining about the ceilings falling down due to chronic underfunding of basic maintenance; getting the digital infrastructure right is probably lower down their wish list than ceilings that don't collapse: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/courtroom-shut-ceiling-collapse-inner-london-crown-court-repairs-b1109973.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/courtroom-shut-ceilin...
    - kotaKat 3y ago
      I pointed this out in a previous post elsewhere but there are places out there with little to no manpower, period. https://www.wwnytv.com/2023/11/15/st-lawrence-county-struggling-find-judges/ https://www.wwnytv.com/2023/11/15/st-lawrence-county-struggl... A single judge, and likely, a single court clerk, are the only people in many, many rural courthouses. And sometimes, that judge themselves might have been able to get into the job with one vote as a joke. Neither of them could have any IT support, just a couple laptops from the county if that to help them out. These courts out there run a lot more on paper and fax and occasionally normal email (https is 'secure email' right? /s). They'd have zero clue what a CA even is, other than the Golden State.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      >Surely they'd have a minimal IT department... That is horrifically underfunded, so the pay is low, so the employees get poached all the time. I have a bit more insider information here than most as I had family that has worked in the court system and law enforcement 20+ years, and was good friends with IT at the county. These counties are generally so busy fixing past problems there is zero time, budget, and manpower to implement new technology like you're talking about. Seriously recovering encrypted systems is a major part of their time. As to the poaching, the number one 'company' that poached good IT people in the county was the feds. They tend to pay a lot more, and they too are generally critically understaffed. Most IT people simply don't want to work for county/state/fed at the end of the day because pay isn't great, and for that not great pay there are a lot of restrictions.
- alwaysrunning 3y ago
  But you also assume they wouldn't give up using it due to frustration.
mulmen 3y ago
> and then doing tech support for some redneck judge that owns more guns than electronic devices. This is an unnecessary dig. Not all "rednecks" are dumb. They got us to the moon. Not all people who resist tech "innovation" in their space are "rednecks" or "dumb". They probably know a whole hell of a lot more about their domain than you do. Be cautious of the toxic sense of superiority tech people have that they somehow know better than the unwashed masses, even before immersing themselves in the domain to understand and then solve problems. Take delivery apps that have somehow made the previously thriving small business of delivering food a giant industry that loses money for everyone involved. Adding a tech doesn't automatically make things better. When people resist your shiny new (and likely ill conceived) tech that doesn't mean they are dumb. They might just recall the sting from last time.
- bdzr 3y ago
  > Take delivery apps that have somehow made the previously thriving small business of delivering food a giant industry that loses money for everyone involved. I agree with everything you said but this. It seems like an industry with sustainability problems where the consumers are winning big. It also seems like it ignores the small businesses that could never support delivery drivers in the first place. I'm not super familiar with this industry but I hear similar arguments against ride sharing which is at worst 10x better on the consumer side than it was before.
  - Moru 3y ago
    The problem with the big tech trying to fix problem in one country can turn out destroying something that actually works better in some other country. Here in Sweden we have had something called e-invoices for a very long time. You just ordered something and the invoice ended up automatically on your bank. Just a few clicks to pay all your invoices no matter how many. Now there are several different payment apps that wants to fight for the customers and they all require you to get their app. Or you will have to jump through five hoops to get to pay the invoice. It's called rentseeking I believe...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

hnfong 3y ago

Having a cert from a validated *.gov CA doesn’t seem that complicated, or at least, should be “just as complicated” as setting up properly TLs certs. Getting the tech adopted might be difficult (like you say some judges may not see the point of it) but the PKI doesn’t have to be super complicated… Having different authorities provide signatures for different types of documents may or may not be needed, in theory it is more secure, but just checking the domain name suffix should be a good start. And every tech literate person has a general idea how to tell “valid” domain names from phishing sites, so the scheme translates well

ben_w 3y ago
> Having a cert from a validated *.gov CA doesn’t seem that complicated, or at least, should be “just as complicated” as setting up properly TLs certs. You're not wrong, but you are overestimating the tech skill level of the average non techie. I'm travelling right now, and a surprising fraction of restaurant websites here aren't https.
- hnfong 3y ago
  Yes, but we're talking about the judiciary here, not restaurants... Surely they'd have a minimal IT department...
  - ben_w 3y ago
    You might hope so, but I have no reason to think they are magically more ept than anyone else. I don't know much about the American ones, but the British ones are complaining about the ceilings falling down due to chronic underfunding of basic maintenance; getting the digital infrastructure right is probably lower down their wish list than ceilings that don't collapse: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/courtroom-shut-ceiling-collapse-inner-london-crown-court-repairs-b1109973.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/courtroom-shut-ceilin...
  - kotaKat 3y ago
    I pointed this out in a previous post elsewhere but there are places out there with little to no manpower, period. https://www.wwnytv.com/2023/11/15/st-lawrence-county-struggling-find-judges/ https://www.wwnytv.com/2023/11/15/st-lawrence-county-struggl... A single judge, and likely, a single court clerk, are the only people in many, many rural courthouses. And sometimes, that judge themselves might have been able to get into the job with one vote as a joke. Neither of them could have any IT support, just a couple laptops from the county if that to help them out. These courts out there run a lot more on paper and fax and occasionally normal email (https is 'secure email' right? /s). They'd have zero clue what a CA even is, other than the Golden State.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    >Surely they'd have a minimal IT department... That is horrifically underfunded, so the pay is low, so the employees get poached all the time. I have a bit more insider information here than most as I had family that has worked in the court system and law enforcement 20+ years, and was good friends with IT at the county. These counties are generally so busy fixing past problems there is zero time, budget, and manpower to implement new technology like you're talking about. Seriously recovering encrypted systems is a major part of their time. As to the poaching, the number one 'company' that poached good IT people in the county was the feds. They tend to pay a lot more, and they too are generally critically understaffed. Most IT people simply don't want to work for county/state/fed at the end of the day because pay isn't great, and for that not great pay there are a lot of restrictions.
alwaysrunning 3y ago
But you also assume they wouldn't give up using it due to frustration.

mulmen 3y ago

> and then doing tech support for some redneck judge that owns more guns than electronic devices. This is an unnecessary dig. Not all "rednecks" are dumb. They got us to the moon. Not all people who resist tech "innovation" in their space are "rednecks" or "dumb". They probably know a whole hell of a lot more about their domain than you do. Be cautious of the toxic sense of superiority tech people have that they somehow know better than the unwashed masses, even before immersing themselves in the domain to understand and then solve problems. Take delivery apps that have somehow made the previously thriving small business of delivering food a giant industry that loses money for everyone involved. Adding a tech doesn't automatically make things better. When people resist your shiny new (and likely ill conceived) tech that doesn't mean they are dumb. They might just recall the sting from last time.

bdzr 3y ago
> Take delivery apps that have somehow made the previously thriving small business of delivering food a giant industry that loses money for everyone involved. I agree with everything you said but this. It seems like an industry with sustainability problems where the consumers are winning big. It also seems like it ignores the small businesses that could never support delivery drivers in the first place. I'm not super familiar with this industry but I hear similar arguments against ride sharing which is at worst 10x better on the consumer side than it was before.
- Moru 3y ago
  The problem with the big tech trying to fix problem in one country can turn out destroying something that actually works better in some other country. Here in Sweden we have had something called e-invoices for a very long time. You just ordered something and the invoice ended up automatically on your bank. Just a few clicks to pay all your invoices no matter how many. Now there are several different payment apps that wants to fight for the customers and they all require you to get their app. Or you will have to jump through five hoops to get to pay the invoice. It's called rentseeking I believe...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]