4 ms·

I’m curious to see what Hello Games does with this, but the trailer feels mostly like NMS with a different skin. It seems odd to try to build an RPG in a proce

I’m curious to see what Hello Games does with this, but the trailer feels mostly like NMS with a different skin. It seems odd to try to build an RPG in a procedural world. It’s hard to build an immersive world, when it wasn’t hand crafted to fit the story. NMS was ambitious, and it’s definitely come a long way from when it started, but it still lacks the depth of a hand crafted story and world. But it’s a sandbox game from the ground up — a sandbox RPG seems like it would just result in a fairly flat experience. Compared to, for example, Nier Automata or the Horizon franchise, where it’s clear what went into developing both the story and world.

Jensson 3y ago
Who said this would be an RPG? To me it looks like a fantasy survival sandbox game along similar lines of Terraria or Valheim. Those tend to focus more on action and exploration of dangerous environments, and that creates a very compelling experience.
- jader201 3y ago
  > Who said this would be an RPG? The page from the link says: > it brings the depth of a role playing game to the freedom of a survival sandbox I guess you could argue it doesn’t directly state that it’s an RPG, but even claiming it has the depth of one seems to suggest a deep story that I’m arguing is typically hard to achieve with a procedural world. I would argue Terraria’s depth is in its crafting mechanics and variety of loot, but not its story. I’ve not played Valheim, but have heard it compared to a 3D Terraria.
  - afiori 3y ago
    In many cases RPG is used to mean "character classes, skill trees, and/or skill progression" as opposed to "your character is mostly always the same but with different weapons" (e.g. in terraria you can get very different characters depending on how you play, but the difference is mostly due to swappable equipment)
    - jader201 3y ago
      Yeah, the definition of RPG will always be debated. Personally, I think it’s a combination of the things you list, plus a deep story. Without a deep story, I think you’re just left with a sandbox adventure/survival/simulation game. I would not consider Terraria an RPG. But others might.
      - afiori 3y ago
        My interpretation of how the term is used is that the requirement is to have the ability to experience radically different gameplay based on how you play and your choices. For example Undertale goes 100% on "the story evolves around you even if your character essentially is always the same" but also a game that goes "experience tha same story with different mechanics and playstyles" would be an RPG
_dark_matter_ 3y ago
Historically yes, but LLMs could be the differentiator here in developing ad-hoc stories that fit the players development so far. That tech was not available for NMS.
- Jensson 3y ago
  Random flavorful LLM stories that doesn't fit in the world will feel even worse than the bland auto generated quests we currently have. Bad writing is far worse than no writing. You would need to interface it with the environments etc, so that the LLM has something to work with. I could see LLMs generating good quests when each character has as much data as in Dwarf Fortress for example, but then you would need to do the work to add all of that.
dmos62 3y ago
Loosely structured or sandboxy rpgs are viable and my favorite kind actually. Kenshi is a great example. Dwarf fortress and its clones also, though character churn in classic df defocuses individual characters and you always end up role playing as the colony itself.
jhbadger 3y ago
Besides the issue of whether it really will be an RPG, procedural generation has a long history in RPGs -- the Elder Scrolls series traditionally had procedurally generated dungeons. And of course many people's first exposure to procedural generation is playing Rogue or the many games inspired by it ("roguelikes").
cultofmetatron 3y ago
> It seems odd to try to build an RPG in a procedural world. It’s hard to build an immersive world, cough caves of qud cough
- jader201 3y ago
  Haven’t heard of this, just checked, looks interesting. May have to check it out.
setr 3y ago
> It seems odd to try to build an RPG in a procedural world. It’s hard to build an immersive world, when it wasn’t hand crafted to fit the story. The entire genre of roguelikes is a counterexample
- jader201 3y ago
  I mention it in another comment, but I think it depends on your definition of RPG. I think of RPGs as games that are RPGs first: JRPGs and Western RPGs (Elder Scrolls, Baldur’s Gate, etc.) with rich stories. I don’t really think of roguelikes as RPGs. But again, the definition will always be argued, and not trying to push my definition on others. My main point is that, to me, RPG often implies a rich story, and I think a generated world (including those in roguelikes) has a tough time matching the richness of the stories in hand-crafted RPGs.
  - setr 3y ago
    From my PoV I find roguelikes to be a stronger form of roleplaying and immersion; the difference is in where the roleplaying occurs — in the play itself. I’ve never found navigating limited narrative trees to be nearly as involved; you’re just going through someone else’s story. The same occurs playing tabletop as well. When the DM comes out with his whole big narrative and players with complex backstories, versus a vague broadly defined setting that is forced to dynamically adapt to player actions, the latter always forges a stronger bond with the character being played. Though the risk with the game in question is that NMS is/was exactly not a dynamically adapting setting; when they said random generation they meant it, and with no internal consistency between various systems you end up with… random shit happening for random reasons and no actionable or narrative control over any of it. Dwarf fortress is really probably the ideal in terms of procgen producing not just serviceable RPG narratives, but actually interesting ones

Jensson 3y ago

Who said this would be an RPG? To me it looks like a fantasy survival sandbox game along similar lines of Terraria or Valheim. Those tend to focus more on action and exploration of dangerous environments, and that creates a very compelling experience.

jader201 3y ago
> Who said this would be an RPG? The page from the link says: > it brings the depth of a role playing game to the freedom of a survival sandbox I guess you could argue it doesn’t directly state that it’s an RPG, but even claiming it has the depth of one seems to suggest a deep story that I’m arguing is typically hard to achieve with a procedural world. I would argue Terraria’s depth is in its crafting mechanics and variety of loot, but not its story. I’ve not played Valheim, but have heard it compared to a 3D Terraria.
- afiori 3y ago
  In many cases RPG is used to mean "character classes, skill trees, and/or skill progression" as opposed to "your character is mostly always the same but with different weapons" (e.g. in terraria you can get very different characters depending on how you play, but the difference is mostly due to swappable equipment)
  - jader201 3y ago
    Yeah, the definition of RPG will always be debated. Personally, I think it’s a combination of the things you list, plus a deep story. Without a deep story, I think you’re just left with a sandbox adventure/survival/simulation game. I would not consider Terraria an RPG. But others might.
    - afiori 3y ago
      My interpretation of how the term is used is that the requirement is to have the ability to experience radically different gameplay based on how you play and your choices. For example Undertale goes 100% on "the story evolves around you even if your character essentially is always the same" but also a game that goes "experience tha same story with different mechanics and playstyles" would be an RPG

_dark_matter_ 3y ago

Historically yes, but LLMs could be the differentiator here in developing ad-hoc stories that fit the players development so far. That tech was not available for NMS.

Jensson 3y ago
Random flavorful LLM stories that doesn't fit in the world will feel even worse than the bland auto generated quests we currently have. Bad writing is far worse than no writing. You would need to interface it with the environments etc, so that the LLM has something to work with. I could see LLMs generating good quests when each character has as much data as in Dwarf Fortress for example, but then you would need to do the work to add all of that.

dmos62 3y ago

Loosely structured or sandboxy rpgs are viable and my favorite kind actually. Kenshi is a great example. Dwarf fortress and its clones also, though character churn in classic df defocuses individual characters and you always end up role playing as the colony itself.

jhbadger 3y ago

Besides the issue of whether it really will be an RPG, procedural generation has a long history in RPGs -- the Elder Scrolls series traditionally had procedurally generated dungeons. And of course many people's first exposure to procedural generation is playing Rogue or the many games inspired by it ("roguelikes").

cultofmetatron 3y ago

> It seems odd to try to build an RPG in a procedural world. It’s hard to build an immersive world, cough caves of qud cough

jader201 3y ago
Haven’t heard of this, just checked, looks interesting. May have to check it out.

setr 3y ago

> It seems odd to try to build an RPG in a procedural world. It’s hard to build an immersive world, when it wasn’t hand crafted to fit the story. The entire genre of roguelikes is a counterexample

jader201 3y ago
I mention it in another comment, but I think it depends on your definition of RPG. I think of RPGs as games that are RPGs first: JRPGs and Western RPGs (Elder Scrolls, Baldur’s Gate, etc.) with rich stories. I don’t really think of roguelikes as RPGs. But again, the definition will always be argued, and not trying to push my definition on others. My main point is that, to me, RPG often implies a rich story, and I think a generated world (including those in roguelikes) has a tough time matching the richness of the stories in hand-crafted RPGs.
- setr 3y ago
  From my PoV I find roguelikes to be a stronger form of roleplaying and immersion; the difference is in where the roleplaying occurs — in the play itself. I’ve never found navigating limited narrative trees to be nearly as involved; you’re just going through someone else’s story. The same occurs playing tabletop as well. When the DM comes out with his whole big narrative and players with complex backstories, versus a vague broadly defined setting that is forced to dynamically adapt to player actions, the latter always forges a stronger bond with the character being played. Though the risk with the game in question is that NMS is/was exactly not a dynamically adapting setting; when they said random generation they meant it, and with no internal consistency between various systems you end up with… random shit happening for random reasons and no actionable or narrative control over any of it. Dwarf fortress is really probably the ideal in terms of procgen producing not just serviceable RPG narratives, but actually interesting ones