4 ms·

This has been a fairly common rhetorical move for defenders of disproportionate Israeli violence, inflicted primarily upon civilians, in recent months. I've see

by pxc 3y ago

This has been a fairly common rhetorical move for defenders of disproportionate Israeli violence, inflicted primarily upon civilians, in recent months. I've seen it done with the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well as the firebombing of Dresden. On TV in English, which atrocity is used to justify the current and growing civilian death toll in Gaza seems to depend on who the audiences. US audiences are appealed to with comparison to Hiroshima and UK audiences, to Dresden. It's easy to read it cynically when it's an Israeli official excusing one war crime with another on television. It's stranger and sadder to see it done by an ordinary stranger online.

edanm 3y ago
You think it's cynical to change your argument to fit your audience? I don't understand this. The basic argument is "If you think it was legitimate when X country did this, then what's different here?" I think it's very valid to find an X that the person you're speaking to will actually agree with.
- pxc 3y ago
  I think politicians and government officials using an historic atrocity to justify an ongoing one is cynical. The other details are mostly incidental.
  - edanm 3y ago
    I don't think it's using an historic atrocity, it's using an analogy. And btw, the analogy isn't to Dresden, because Israel is at the very least claiming it isn't targeting civilians in that manner. The comparison is to ISIS/Iraq/Afghanistan/etc. You can legitimately think that those wars weren't justified, or that no war is ever justified. Some people think that way. I think most people don't think that way. I certainly don't, and I think a war against Hamas is incredibly justified. That doesn't mean I automatically agree with everything Israel does btw, nor should it.
    - defrost 3y ago
      There should be no real analogy to Dresden in any case; WWI night time bombing raids were carried from altitude above flak defenses over blacked out cities prior to GPS using dead reckoning and uncertain waypoint identification. Dresden was defended as the justified bombing of a strategic target, a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort. Had the technology of the time included GPS positioning and laser guided missiles there would not have been widespread bombing across the broader city area "just to be sure". The issue here today is an incredibly high civilian to justified target ratio despite having centimeter precison targeting and high resolution overview of the region of interest. Deeper issues go back into the history of strategies of minority groups with decision making powers on both sides that resulted in dragging a majority of civilians into this current situation.
      - edanm 3y ago
        > The issue here today is an incredibly high civilian to justified target ratio despite having centimeter precison targeting and high resolution overview of the region of interest. You don't know what the civilian to justified target ratio is. I don't know it. No one in the world really knows, except the actual IDF. Their estimate, last I heard, is about 2 civilians killed for every militant killed. Which is awful, but is more-or-less in line with similar wars carried out by Western countries in the past, as far as I can tell. > The issue here today is an incredibly high civilian to justified target ratio despite having centimeter precison targeting and high resolution overview of the region of interest. You make it sound like a lot more precision is possible than I think reality warrants. According to Israel at least (and backed up by the US), Hamas militants are hiding in civilian clothes among civilians. No overview of the area and no GPS makes it easily possible to tell them apart.
        defrost 3y ago
        We both know, unless you are operating with deliberate ignorance, what various authorities with a history of checking past claims have said about the reported M&M stats, eg: No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... and numerous others. Are you saying the IDF has had troops on the ground in Gaza verifying the M&M stats? Or are you simply stating that you believe the IDF? Either way, as neither of us are an expert here I suggest you take this up with The Lancet and the UN, etc. I have stated as a simple matter of verifiable fact that vastly more precision is both possible and achievable today in 2023 than was the case in WWII night time bombing. The IDF are hitting the targets that they have chosen to hit. If they have poor intelligence then perhaps they should not fire their weapons.

by pxc 3y ago

edanm 3y ago

You think it's cynical to change your argument to fit your audience? I don't understand this. The basic argument is "If you think it was legitimate when X country did this, then what's different here?" I think it's very valid to find an X that the person you're speaking to will actually agree with.

pxc 3y ago
I think politicians and government officials using an historic atrocity to justify an ongoing one is cynical. The other details are mostly incidental.
- edanm 3y ago
  I don't think it's using an historic atrocity, it's using an analogy. And btw, the analogy isn't to Dresden, because Israel is at the very least claiming it isn't targeting civilians in that manner. The comparison is to ISIS/Iraq/Afghanistan/etc. You can legitimately think that those wars weren't justified, or that no war is ever justified. Some people think that way. I think most people don't think that way. I certainly don't, and I think a war against Hamas is incredibly justified. That doesn't mean I automatically agree with everything Israel does btw, nor should it.
  - defrost 3y ago
    There should be no real analogy to Dresden in any case; WWI night time bombing raids were carried from altitude above flak defenses over blacked out cities prior to GPS using dead reckoning and uncertain waypoint identification. Dresden was defended as the justified bombing of a strategic target, a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort. Had the technology of the time included GPS positioning and laser guided missiles there would not have been widespread bombing across the broader city area "just to be sure". The issue here today is an incredibly high civilian to justified target ratio despite having centimeter precison targeting and high resolution overview of the region of interest. Deeper issues go back into the history of strategies of minority groups with decision making powers on both sides that resulted in dragging a majority of civilians into this current situation.
    - edanm 3y ago
      > The issue here today is an incredibly high civilian to justified target ratio despite having centimeter precison targeting and high resolution overview of the region of interest. You don't know what the civilian to justified target ratio is. I don't know it. No one in the world really knows, except the actual IDF. Their estimate, last I heard, is about 2 civilians killed for every militant killed. Which is awful, but is more-or-less in line with similar wars carried out by Western countries in the past, as far as I can tell. > The issue here today is an incredibly high civilian to justified target ratio despite having centimeter precison targeting and high resolution overview of the region of interest. You make it sound like a lot more precision is possible than I think reality warrants. According to Israel at least (and backed up by the US), Hamas militants are hiding in civilian clothes among civilians. No overview of the area and no GPS makes it easily possible to tell them apart.
      - defrost 3y ago
        We both know, unless you are operating with deliberate ignorance, what various authorities with a history of checking past claims have said about the reported M&M stats, eg: No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... and numerous others. Are you saying the IDF has had troops on the ground in Gaza verifying the M&M stats? Or are you simply stating that you believe the IDF? Either way, as neither of us are an expert here I suggest you take this up with The Lancet and the UN, etc. I have stated as a simple matter of verifiable fact that vastly more precision is both possible and achievable today in 2023 than was the case in WWII night time bombing. The IDF are hitting the targets that they have chosen to hit. If they have poor intelligence then perhaps they should not fire their weapons.