4 ms·

The only reason this whole debate exists is that there are lots of us who love programming, and would be doing lots of it whether or not it paid. This naturall

by ef4 15y ago

The only reason this whole debate exists is that there are lots of us who love programming, and would be doing lots of it whether or not it paid. This naturally makes 501 types uneasy, because it leads to unfavorable comparisons.

jmduke 15y ago
(Caveat: I'm a college student in undergrad, and certainly don't have the industry exposure of other commenters.) I don't think that's entirely fair; I can pretty handily separate myself and other CS majors into those who spend their weekends/late nights doing hackathons and such, and those who pursue hobbies and activities separate from programming/development. In my experience, the latter doesn't specifically have less zeal for programming than the former; it's just balanced by enthusiasm for other subjects and interests. The point that there are many 9-5 programmers who treat it as a career and nothing else is well taken; that being said, you don't have to be spending the overwhelming majority of your waking hours in a terminal or IDE to love programming.
xyzzyz 15y ago
I'd rather say that the reason behind it is that there are people who don't see that "either you're 501 programmer, or you love programming" is a false dichotomy.
- edwinnathaniel 15y ago
  These people you're talking about...they are called: "programmers". That's how some programmers's brain being wired: category, structured, organized, etc. I'm guessing it is mainly because of the work we do every single day, single second, of our life, i.e.: that's what we do and we, fortunately or not, applied it to our daily life.
- neutronicus 15y ago
  The "501 Developers" are trying to negotiate as a group. That creates a dichotomy where there previously wasn't one.
orangecat 15y ago
This naturally makes 501 types uneasy, because it leads to unfavorable comparisons. Yes, about half the manifesto is reasonable, and the other half comes off like unmotivated students who get mad at the nerds for messing up the curve.
_delirium 15y ago
I'm not sure loving programming correlates well with people who put in long hours, though. One thought experiment: imagine programming were an occupation that paid a reasonable skilled-craftsman type of wage, but not a high-level professional type of wage, say $50-70k typical salary and no real prospect of big exits/IPOs. Who would still be in the field, and who would find another field? People who love programming would probably still be around. Heck, there are die-hard tech lovers who'd still be around if it paid $30k, the way artists stick around despite low pay because they'd rather do art for $30k than not-art for more. But I would guess that a substantial proportion of the current tech workaholics wouldn't be, because they're driven by something other than intrinsic love of technology/computation/programming. Something more like a drive-to-be-on-top type personality, perhaps.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- stcredzero 15y ago
  Almost a dozen years ago, I took a friend to a jam session. It just so happened, that one of his musical heroes, an Irish Uillean piper was on tour and decided to sit in. They hit it off well, and my friend became a protegé for awhile. Anyhow, the touring musician told my friend, "Don't try to play music for a living. It'll kill you." Sometimes having to do something, especially if you can't do it exactly the way you like, can kill feelings for it. Sometimes having to do something for long hours can do the same. I'm not so sure having or lacking these tendencies makes one person better or worse than another.
MatthewPhillips 15y ago
Actually the debate exists because some startups, notably Square, allegedly have culturals that frown on the person who leaves the office while the sun is still out.
- edwinnathaniel 15y ago
  I'm guessing many ambitious startups in SV are like that...
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
forza 15y ago
I can't help thinking that most of the programmers who program (a lot) in their spare time do so because they aren't satisfied at work.
- adestefan 15y ago
  I'm satisfied with my work, but I also realize that because of the industry that I'm in (low-level embedded), I'll be writing about 90% of code in C. So if I want to dabble in something else, then I'll be doing it on my own time.
- babarock 15y ago
  This definitely applies to me. I'm in my first job, I've been doing this for almost 2 years now. Everything about this place screams "Mediocrity". Most of my coworkers are middle-aged programmers with average skills and no hope of ever becoming anything beyond average. All they want to do is work their 9-5 hours (in all fairness most of them stay until 6), and daydream about the next way to spend their 35day/year vacations (not to mention the ~20 days of public holidays. Yay France!). I'm not satisfied, a better word would be "fulfilled" at work. I am the youngest of a 50+ programmer team, (not-so-)freshly graduated and I'm regarded as the best dev on the team. Because I love programming, because I don't want to stop learning, because I care. The only thing that's kept me going for so long is the 2-3 hours of "real" programming I put in every evening. So far my gf's being very comprehensive about that, but I know things will change when kids will come into play. One of the main reasons I read HN is to remind myself that interesting, fulfilling jobs do exist. One day...
  - nooop 15y ago
    > 35day/year vacations (not to mention the ~20 days of public holidays. Yay France!) I wish it was true; but you are just bullshitting.
    - babarock 15y ago
      I wish it was false; I really wish I was bullshitting. http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/conges-et-absences-du-salarie,114/les-conges-payes,1035.html http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiqu...
adestefan 15y ago
There's a difference between programming for work and programming for pleasure. When I program for pleasure, I'll do whatever I want and leave unfinished pieces all over the place. When I program for work, I'm getting paid for something someone else wants me to do. I'm I'm not getting paid, then I'm not working on that code. If that makes me a 501 programmer than so be it.

by ef4 15y ago

jmduke 15y ago

(Caveat: I'm a college student in undergrad, and certainly don't have the industry exposure of other commenters.) I don't think that's entirely fair; I can pretty handily separate myself and other CS majors into those who spend their weekends/late nights doing hackathons and such, and those who pursue hobbies and activities separate from programming/development. In my experience, the latter doesn't specifically have less zeal for programming than the former; it's just balanced by enthusiasm for other subjects and interests. The point that there are many 9-5 programmers who treat it as a career and nothing else is well taken; that being said, you don't have to be spending the overwhelming majority of your waking hours in a terminal or IDE to love programming.

xyzzyz 15y ago

I'd rather say that the reason behind it is that there are people who don't see that "either you're 501 programmer, or you love programming" is a false dichotomy.

edwinnathaniel 15y ago
These people you're talking about...they are called: "programmers". That's how some programmers's brain being wired: category, structured, organized, etc. I'm guessing it is mainly because of the work we do every single day, single second, of our life, i.e.: that's what we do and we, fortunately or not, applied it to our daily life.
neutronicus 15y ago
The "501 Developers" are trying to negotiate as a group. That creates a dichotomy where there previously wasn't one.

orangecat 15y ago

This naturally makes 501 types uneasy, because it leads to unfavorable comparisons. Yes, about half the manifesto is reasonable, and the other half comes off like unmotivated students who get mad at the nerds for messing up the curve.

_delirium 15y ago

I'm not sure loving programming correlates well with people who put in long hours, though. One thought experiment: imagine programming were an occupation that paid a reasonable skilled-craftsman type of wage, but not a high-level professional type of wage, say $50-70k typical salary and no real prospect of big exits/IPOs. Who would still be in the field, and who would find another field? People who love programming would probably still be around. Heck, there are die-hard tech lovers who'd still be around if it paid $30k, the way artists stick around despite low pay because they'd rather do art for $30k than not-art for more. But I would guess that a substantial proportion of the current tech workaholics wouldn't be, because they're driven by something other than intrinsic love of technology/computation/programming. Something more like a drive-to-be-on-top type personality, perhaps.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
stcredzero 15y ago
Almost a dozen years ago, I took a friend to a jam session. It just so happened, that one of his musical heroes, an Irish Uillean piper was on tour and decided to sit in. They hit it off well, and my friend became a protegé for awhile. Anyhow, the touring musician told my friend, "Don't try to play music for a living. It'll kill you." Sometimes having to do something, especially if you can't do it exactly the way you like, can kill feelings for it. Sometimes having to do something for long hours can do the same. I'm not so sure having or lacking these tendencies makes one person better or worse than another.

MatthewPhillips 15y ago

Actually the debate exists because some startups, notably Square, allegedly have culturals that frown on the person who leaves the office while the sun is still out.

edwinnathaniel 15y ago
I'm guessing many ambitious startups in SV are like that...
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

forza 15y ago

I can't help thinking that most of the programmers who program (a lot) in their spare time do so because they aren't satisfied at work.

adestefan 15y ago
I'm satisfied with my work, but I also realize that because of the industry that I'm in (low-level embedded), I'll be writing about 90% of code in C. So if I want to dabble in something else, then I'll be doing it on my own time.
babarock 15y ago
This definitely applies to me. I'm in my first job, I've been doing this for almost 2 years now. Everything about this place screams "Mediocrity". Most of my coworkers are middle-aged programmers with average skills and no hope of ever becoming anything beyond average. All they want to do is work their 9-5 hours (in all fairness most of them stay until 6), and daydream about the next way to spend their 35day/year vacations (not to mention the ~20 days of public holidays. Yay France!). I'm not satisfied, a better word would be "fulfilled" at work. I am the youngest of a 50+ programmer team, (not-so-)freshly graduated and I'm regarded as the best dev on the team. Because I love programming, because I don't want to stop learning, because I care. The only thing that's kept me going for so long is the 2-3 hours of "real" programming I put in every evening. So far my gf's being very comprehensive about that, but I know things will change when kids will come into play. One of the main reasons I read HN is to remind myself that interesting, fulfilling jobs do exist. One day...
- nooop 15y ago
  > 35day/year vacations (not to mention the ~20 days of public holidays. Yay France!) I wish it was true; but you are just bullshitting.
  - babarock 15y ago
    I wish it was false; I really wish I was bullshitting. http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/conges-et-absences-du-salarie,114/les-conges-payes,1035.html http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiqu...

adestefan 15y ago

There's a difference between programming for work and programming for pleasure. When I program for pleasure, I'll do whatever I want and leave unfinished pieces all over the place. When I program for work, I'm getting paid for something someone else wants me to do. I'm I'm not getting paid, then I'm not working on that code. If that makes me a 501 programmer than so be it.