4 ms·

This argument completely ignores both the cultural distinctions between the different areas of the former Ottoman empire, and the fact that a person's home is n

by tdeck 3y ago

This argument completely ignores both the cultural distinctions between the different areas of the former Ottoman empire, and the fact that a person's home is not interchangeable with any other place. Nobody would expect a Polish person in 1939 to say "well, we Slavs have the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia so I guess it's fine that German settlers took my farm at gunpoint and forced me to leave". The implicit assumption is that any place with a majority of "Arabs" would ethnically cleanse all the Jews or become an Islamic theocracy, so we must view everything through the lens of competing ethno-states. It's important to challenge this assumption. Ethno-states are inherently violent because every population is a mixture of different ethnicities, and an ethno-state needs to maintain a majority of a certain population. If the "wrong" group's population grows in an ethno-state, it becomes a "demographic problem" that the government needs to "solve". This is why carving up the world into such states is never a lasting solution for peace. Aside: "Arab" and "Jew" are not mutually exclusive. You can be an Arab Jew in the same way you can be a Hispanic Jew - Arab is a distinction based on one's mother language not one's religion. This is why the Arab League includes countries in north Africa where most people aren't descended from ancestral Arabians. The history of and literature of Judeo-Arabic is an interesting rabbit hole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Jews

rayiner 3y ago
Most of the world is competing ethnostates, including most if not all Arab states. (I’m certainly glad my parent’s generation secured our ethnostate, at great cost.) Whether there is a better way is an open question. But anybody would be an idiot to sacrifice their ethnostate for that experiment. It’s never ended well.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  > Anybody would be an idiot to sacrifice their ethnostate I'm sure Hamas feels the same way! I'm not going to say whether one or two-state solution is best, that's for Palestinians and Israelis to decide, but something's gotta give.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    The only workable solution is two states, and Arabs giving up the idea of retaking Jerusalem and rebuilding the caliphate. They got to keep nearly all their territorial gains from their conquest of the Levant, that should be good enough.
    - Georgelemental 3y ago
      > The only workable solution is two states, and Arabs giving up the idea of retaking Jerusalem and rebuilding the caliphate. Yes, I don't think Palestinian Christians would love the idea of a caliphate in any case… > Territorial gains from their conquest of the Levant Again, for the daily life of the average resident of Gaza or the West Bank, this matters not a whit.
- tdeck 3y ago
  > Most of the world is competing ethnostates, including most if not all Arab states. This is simply not true. Almost none of the world is ethnostates.
  - __loam 3y ago
    Countries like China and Japan are de facto ethnostates. There's also countries with religious majorities like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, and India, many of which are associated with an ethnicity. Saudi Arabia is named after the Arabs. You could make the argument that many European states have dominant ethnic groups like the French, though they are nominally secular nations. The biggest cosmopolitan countries are the United States and Brazil if I remember correctly. Maybe Canada too. Europe is moving in that direction. Countries that have a diverse citizenry are more of an exception though. Not that I disagree with your probable view that we should all live in diverse secular democracies, I just think your claim that almost none of the world is ethnostates is somewhat suspect. I agree with the idea that Israel would ideally be a single secular state, but navigating that transition while preserving it as the safest place the Jews of the world can go would be an enormous challenge. The situation sucks and resists simple answers.
    - keepamovin 3y ago
      Good analysis. Any ideas on solutions?
      - __loam 3y ago
        Not a fucking clue man. These people hate each other and they both have reason to. Maybe you need a solution administered by a third party like the UN but no solution is going to leave everyone happy, and the UN itself is pretty flawed. There's plenty of insane people on both sides including Hamas.
        JamesBarney 3y ago
        I don't really see what the UN can do. Even if you had a solution that no one likes how do you force it on both parties? The UN doesn't have the firepower to force Israel to do anything it doesn't want to do, and doesn't have the desire to force Palestine to do anything it doesn't want to do.
JamesBarney 3y ago
Every nation in that area is an Islamic theocracy, monarchy, a failed state or a military dictatorship. If we waived a magic wand and made Palestine and Israel one country we wouldn't have peace. We'd have a a bloody civil war that makes the current conflict look like childs play.
- rayiner 3y ago
  Exactly. Show me an Arab country where Jews live as equals and prosper. There isn’t one. There’s just a few thousand Jews in the Arab countries. Less than 100 in Syria and Lebanon, about 100 in Egypt. Five in Iraq. Officially, zero in Saudi. Ethnostates are still highly relevant today, especially for Jews.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  In my country, the US, many people once believed that slavery was morally wrong, but still argued against freeing the slaves because they might try to take revenge on the rest of the population. Those fears were, in fact, confirmed on several occasions. And even today, areas with a high population of descendants of slaves fare far worse by almost every economic and social measure. Freeing the slaves (a task which required us to fight the deadliest war in our history) was still the right and necessary thing to do. "You broke it, you bought it."
  - JamesBarney 3y ago
    The Israelis are not just going to dissolve Israel and give it to the Palestinians just like the US won't dissolve itself and give itself back to the Native Americans.
    - Georgelemental 3y ago
      > dissolve Israel and give it to the Palestinians That's not what I'm asking for. In the US, Native Americans and descendants of slaves have full legal and political rights (in fact, Native Americans have extra political rights not granted to other citizens). Israel also can give Palestinians full legal and political rights, either in a separate state or as part of a one-state solution, without compromising its continued existence.

by tdeck 3y ago

rayiner 3y ago

Most of the world is competing ethnostates, including most if not all Arab states. (I’m certainly glad my parent’s generation secured our ethnostate, at great cost.) Whether there is a better way is an open question. But anybody would be an idiot to sacrifice their ethnostate for that experiment. It’s never ended well.

Georgelemental 3y ago
> Anybody would be an idiot to sacrifice their ethnostate I'm sure Hamas feels the same way! I'm not going to say whether one or two-state solution is best, that's for Palestinians and Israelis to decide, but something's gotta give.
- rayiner 3y ago
  The only workable solution is two states, and Arabs giving up the idea of retaking Jerusalem and rebuilding the caliphate. They got to keep nearly all their territorial gains from their conquest of the Levant, that should be good enough.
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    > The only workable solution is two states, and Arabs giving up the idea of retaking Jerusalem and rebuilding the caliphate. Yes, I don't think Palestinian Christians would love the idea of a caliphate in any case… > Territorial gains from their conquest of the Levant Again, for the daily life of the average resident of Gaza or the West Bank, this matters not a whit.
tdeck 3y ago
> Most of the world is competing ethnostates, including most if not all Arab states. This is simply not true. Almost none of the world is ethnostates.
- __loam 3y ago
  Countries like China and Japan are de facto ethnostates. There's also countries with religious majorities like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, and India, many of which are associated with an ethnicity. Saudi Arabia is named after the Arabs. You could make the argument that many European states have dominant ethnic groups like the French, though they are nominally secular nations. The biggest cosmopolitan countries are the United States and Brazil if I remember correctly. Maybe Canada too. Europe is moving in that direction. Countries that have a diverse citizenry are more of an exception though. Not that I disagree with your probable view that we should all live in diverse secular democracies, I just think your claim that almost none of the world is ethnostates is somewhat suspect. I agree with the idea that Israel would ideally be a single secular state, but navigating that transition while preserving it as the safest place the Jews of the world can go would be an enormous challenge. The situation sucks and resists simple answers.
  - keepamovin 3y ago
    Good analysis. Any ideas on solutions?
    - __loam 3y ago
      Not a fucking clue man. These people hate each other and they both have reason to. Maybe you need a solution administered by a third party like the UN but no solution is going to leave everyone happy, and the UN itself is pretty flawed. There's plenty of insane people on both sides including Hamas.
      - JamesBarney 3y ago
        I don't really see what the UN can do. Even if you had a solution that no one likes how do you force it on both parties? The UN doesn't have the firepower to force Israel to do anything it doesn't want to do, and doesn't have the desire to force Palestine to do anything it doesn't want to do.

JamesBarney 3y ago

Every nation in that area is an Islamic theocracy, monarchy, a failed state or a military dictatorship. If we waived a magic wand and made Palestine and Israel one country we wouldn't have peace. We'd have a a bloody civil war that makes the current conflict look like childs play.

rayiner 3y ago
Exactly. Show me an Arab country where Jews live as equals and prosper. There isn’t one. There’s just a few thousand Jews in the Arab countries. Less than 100 in Syria and Lebanon, about 100 in Egypt. Five in Iraq. Officially, zero in Saudi. Ethnostates are still highly relevant today, especially for Jews.
Georgelemental 3y ago
In my country, the US, many people once believed that slavery was morally wrong, but still argued against freeing the slaves because they might try to take revenge on the rest of the population. Those fears were, in fact, confirmed on several occasions. And even today, areas with a high population of descendants of slaves fare far worse by almost every economic and social measure. Freeing the slaves (a task which required us to fight the deadliest war in our history) was still the right and necessary thing to do. "You broke it, you bought it."
- JamesBarney 3y ago
  The Israelis are not just going to dissolve Israel and give it to the Palestinians just like the US won't dissolve itself and give itself back to the Native Americans.
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    > dissolve Israel and give it to the Palestinians That's not what I'm asking for. In the US, Native Americans and descendants of slaves have full legal and political rights (in fact, Native Americans have extra political rights not granted to other citizens). Israel also can give Palestinians full legal and political rights, either in a separate state or as part of a one-state solution, without compromising its continued existence.