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> Arabs got the vast majority of the land I was (obviously) referring to their share of the population of Mandatory Palestine specifically.

rayiner 3y ago
Mandatory Palestine was an artificial creation of the British, which existed less than 30 years. For the 400 years before that, it was part of a single Ottoman province along with what is now Syria and Jordan (except for Jerusalem which was split off into a separate distinct in 1872). Talking about “how much of Mandatory Palestine the Arabs got” is contrived, when it was just a part of a much larger Arab territory under the Ottomans, and was planned to be part of a much larger Arab territory after the Ottomans.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  Yes, what really mattered to the ordinary people on the ground wasn't the borders on a map; it was "my family has lived in this house and farmed this land for generations, but now men with guns say the house belongs to them and we have to leave."
  - JamesBarney 3y ago
    You think a forced expulsion from their homes is what drove the 1948 war?
    - anonair 3y ago
      Is it not though? The expulsion started immediately after UN partition recommendation of Nov 1947, the Arab-Israeli war started in May 1948, that is only 6 months later
      - rayiner 3y ago
        The war started the day after the UN resolution, in November 20 1947. The war wasn’t caused by the expulsion of Arabs. The Arab states refusing to recognize the creation of a Jewish state caused the war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war > The war had two main phases, the first being the 1947–1948 civil war, which began on 30 November 1947,[19] a day after the United Nations voted to adopt the Partition Plan for Palestine, which divided the territory into Jewish and Arab sovereign states, and an international Jerusalem (UN Resolution 181). Partition was accepted by the Jewish leadership, but rejected by Palestinian Arab leaders and the Arab states.
        Georgelemental 3y ago
        Yes, exactly, Arabs rejected a partition plan that would expel them from their homes.
        rayiner 3y ago
        The partition plan wouldn’t have expelled anyone from their homes. Most of the land that became Israel belonged to the Ottoman Empire itself. Part of it was purchased by Jews over decades. Arabs weren’t to be expelled from the remainder, they would just become part of the new Jewish state. And, of course, it never would’ve affected Arabs in Syria, Jordan, etc.
        Georgelemental 3y ago
        > purchased by Jews Many of these purchases were from wealthy Ottoman landowners who had in many cases never seen the land they owned. The peasant families that actually lived on the land for generations had no say in the matter. I'm not faulting the purchasers for conducting legal business transactions, if anything the fault belongs to the feudal system of the Ottoman Empire—but none of that matters to someone who has suddenly lost their home and livelihood. > Arabs weren’t to be expelled from the remainder I don't think the historical record bears that out. Why did Israel not let the civilians it displaced return once the war ended, if the displacements were merely a temporary military necessity? And certainly massacres like Deir Yassin were not military necessities, though they did scare many Palestinians into fleeing.
- cool_dude85 3y ago
  I'd say your focus on what happened in other areas of Ottoman control is contrived. It seems obvious that what should have mattered to the Arabs of Mandatory Palestine is the disposition of Mandatory Palestine - it doesn't help them at all to say "well, these other guys over there got a whole country."
  - rayiner 3y ago
    You’re projecting western individualism onto the situation. The correct analysis is to look at how the territory was partitioned between Arabs and Jews. Thats how Arabs themselves viewed it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War. Why did Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi, and Yemen all attack Israel the moment it was created, and several times after that? Why do the Arab countries care so much about Palestine? It’s not like they go around spending their blood and treasure to protect other oppressed groups. Saudi just bombed the shit out of Yemen. The reason they want to get rid of Israel is because they view this as a matter of Arab territorial integrity. My Bangladesh family is posting the paratrooper meme on my FB. Why? Because they view the existence of Israel as an affront to territorial integrity of the Islamic world. You cannot understand the situation Israel is in from a western secular point of view.
    - Georgelemental 3y ago
      > Why did Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi, and Yemen all attack Israel the moment it was created, and several times after that? Since after Israel's founding, the Arab states have initiated war against it exactly once: the 1973 Yom Kippur war. (Technically, I guess you could count Iraq's 1991 rocket attacks as a second time?) In all other cases, either Israel attacked first, or Israel's opponent was not a recognized state actor.

rayiner 3y ago

Mandatory Palestine was an artificial creation of the British, which existed less than 30 years. For the 400 years before that, it was part of a single Ottoman province along with what is now Syria and Jordan (except for Jerusalem which was split off into a separate distinct in 1872). Talking about “how much of Mandatory Palestine the Arabs got” is contrived, when it was just a part of a much larger Arab territory under the Ottomans, and was planned to be part of a much larger Arab territory after the Ottomans.

Georgelemental 3y ago
Yes, what really mattered to the ordinary people on the ground wasn't the borders on a map; it was "my family has lived in this house and farmed this land for generations, but now men with guns say the house belongs to them and we have to leave."
- JamesBarney 3y ago
  You think a forced expulsion from their homes is what drove the 1948 war?
  - anonair 3y ago
    Is it not though? The expulsion started immediately after UN partition recommendation of Nov 1947, the Arab-Israeli war started in May 1948, that is only 6 months later
    - rayiner 3y ago
      The war started the day after the UN resolution, in November 20 1947. The war wasn’t caused by the expulsion of Arabs. The Arab states refusing to recognize the creation of a Jewish state caused the war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war > The war had two main phases, the first being the 1947–1948 civil war, which began on 30 November 1947,[19] a day after the United Nations voted to adopt the Partition Plan for Palestine, which divided the territory into Jewish and Arab sovereign states, and an international Jerusalem (UN Resolution 181). Partition was accepted by the Jewish leadership, but rejected by Palestinian Arab leaders and the Arab states.
      - Georgelemental 3y ago
        Yes, exactly, Arabs rejected a partition plan that would expel them from their homes.
        rayiner 3y ago
        The partition plan wouldn’t have expelled anyone from their homes. Most of the land that became Israel belonged to the Ottoman Empire itself. Part of it was purchased by Jews over decades. Arabs weren’t to be expelled from the remainder, they would just become part of the new Jewish state. And, of course, it never would’ve affected Arabs in Syria, Jordan, etc.
        Georgelemental 3y ago
        > purchased by Jews Many of these purchases were from wealthy Ottoman landowners who had in many cases never seen the land they owned. The peasant families that actually lived on the land for generations had no say in the matter. I'm not faulting the purchasers for conducting legal business transactions, if anything the fault belongs to the feudal system of the Ottoman Empire—but none of that matters to someone who has suddenly lost their home and livelihood. > Arabs weren’t to be expelled from the remainder I don't think the historical record bears that out. Why did Israel not let the civilians it displaced return once the war ended, if the displacements were merely a temporary military necessity? And certainly massacres like Deir Yassin were not military necessities, though they did scare many Palestinians into fleeing.
cool_dude85 3y ago
I'd say your focus on what happened in other areas of Ottoman control is contrived. It seems obvious that what should have mattered to the Arabs of Mandatory Palestine is the disposition of Mandatory Palestine - it doesn't help them at all to say "well, these other guys over there got a whole country."
- rayiner 3y ago
  You’re projecting western individualism onto the situation. The correct analysis is to look at how the territory was partitioned between Arabs and Jews. Thats how Arabs themselves viewed it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War. Why did Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi, and Yemen all attack Israel the moment it was created, and several times after that? Why do the Arab countries care so much about Palestine? It’s not like they go around spending their blood and treasure to protect other oppressed groups. Saudi just bombed the shit out of Yemen. The reason they want to get rid of Israel is because they view this as a matter of Arab territorial integrity. My Bangladesh family is posting the paratrooper meme on my FB. Why? Because they view the existence of Israel as an affront to territorial integrity of the Islamic world. You cannot understand the situation Israel is in from a western secular point of view.
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    > Why did Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi, and Yemen all attack Israel the moment it was created, and several times after that? Since after Israel's founding, the Arab states have initiated war against it exactly once: the 1973 Yom Kippur war. (Technically, I guess you could count Iraq's 1991 rocket attacks as a second time?) In all other cases, either Israel attacked first, or Israel's opponent was not a recognized state actor.