4 ms·

Why does the scale matter? In the legal codes with which I am familiar mens rea matters. Murder is not just worse than manslaughter it is on a different level

Why does the scale matter? In the legal codes with which I am familiar mens rea matters. Murder is not just worse than manslaughter it is on a different level. Western criminal codes generally allow for no punishment, perhaps even no guilt, for a manslaughter. If Israel could remove Hamas without injuring any non-combatants I think they would. It makes a difference. Almost by definition suggesting that scale is a factor is implying that collective punishment is acceptable.

jltsiren 3y ago
Scale is the most important factor when talking about the harm done. A dead person is dead, regardless of if it was murder or manslaughter. Criminal punishments are more about the social consequences than about the crime itself. If someone gets X years in prison for crime A and another person gets 2X years for crime B, it doesn't mean that crime B was twice as bad. It only means that after taking a large number of factors into account, it made sense to give twice as long sentence for crime B.
- creato 3y ago
  Intent matters, and disregarding it disables your ability to determine right from wrong. If someone attacks you and you kill them by acting in self defense, you absolutely would hope that the people judging you for your actions would consider your intent. You would probably feel you don't deserve to spend a moment in handcuffs, let alone night in jail, let alone go through a criminal trial, let alone be sentenced, even if it is negligible in comparison to a murderer.
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    Right and wrong are kind of irrelevant in international politics. When there are no enforceable laws, no shared values, and no expectations of justice, justifications don't really matter. Consequences and reciprocity become more important. If you do something because you think it's justified, others will do similar things if they think their actions are justified. It doesn't matter what the others think about the justifications of your actions or what you think about the justifications of their actions.
    - creato 3y ago
      Political power comes from what populations think. At first, the US thought there would be clear support for their position given Hamas’s actions, and acted accordingly. That has not really been the case, so they are moderating their position. Some of that is a result of large numbers of people thinking things like “Scale is the most important factor when talking about the harm done. A dead person is dead, regardless of if it was murder or manslaughter.”
markdown 3y ago
> If Israel could remove Hamas without injuring any non-combatants I think they would. Surely you jest. How is this attack supposed to remove Hamas? It seems designed to strengthen Hamas, just as Israel has been supporting Hamas since their formation. The existence of Hamas prevents a united Palestinian people while simultaneously giving Israel the excuse to reject a 2-state solution. If Hamas didn't exist, Israel would have to create a Hamas from scratch.
- mupuff1234 3y ago
  You seem to ignore the fact that Palestinians have rejected a 2-state solution and have elected hamas themselves.
  - ConorSheehan1 3y ago
    You seem to ignore the fact that hamas was elected in 2006 and has indefinitely postponed elections since then. Given the demographics most Palestinians weren't even alive when hamas was elected.
    - mupuff1234 3y ago
      That doesn't change the fact that it was elected in the first place, showing that at the time Gaza was not interested in peace. My point is that Palestinians have their share of blame.
  - Arn_Thor 3y ago
    Remind me, when was the last time people in Gaza were given a chance to vote?
    - mupuff1234 3y ago
      Don't see why that changes what I said. Parent comment blamed everything on israel when clearly Palestinians have a fair share of blame - you can't deny that.
  - 3y ago

jltsiren 3y ago

Scale is the most important factor when talking about the harm done. A dead person is dead, regardless of if it was murder or manslaughter. Criminal punishments are more about the social consequences than about the crime itself. If someone gets X years in prison for crime A and another person gets 2X years for crime B, it doesn't mean that crime B was twice as bad. It only means that after taking a large number of factors into account, it made sense to give twice as long sentence for crime B.

creato 3y ago
Intent matters, and disregarding it disables your ability to determine right from wrong. If someone attacks you and you kill them by acting in self defense, you absolutely would hope that the people judging you for your actions would consider your intent. You would probably feel you don't deserve to spend a moment in handcuffs, let alone night in jail, let alone go through a criminal trial, let alone be sentenced, even if it is negligible in comparison to a murderer.
- jltsiren 3y ago
  Right and wrong are kind of irrelevant in international politics. When there are no enforceable laws, no shared values, and no expectations of justice, justifications don't really matter. Consequences and reciprocity become more important. If you do something because you think it's justified, others will do similar things if they think their actions are justified. It doesn't matter what the others think about the justifications of your actions or what you think about the justifications of their actions.
  - creato 3y ago
    Political power comes from what populations think. At first, the US thought there would be clear support for their position given Hamas’s actions, and acted accordingly. That has not really been the case, so they are moderating their position. Some of that is a result of large numbers of people thinking things like “Scale is the most important factor when talking about the harm done. A dead person is dead, regardless of if it was murder or manslaughter.”

markdown 3y ago

> If Israel could remove Hamas without injuring any non-combatants I think they would. Surely you jest. How is this attack supposed to remove Hamas? It seems designed to strengthen Hamas, just as Israel has been supporting Hamas since their formation. The existence of Hamas prevents a united Palestinian people while simultaneously giving Israel the excuse to reject a 2-state solution. If Hamas didn't exist, Israel would have to create a Hamas from scratch.

mupuff1234 3y ago
You seem to ignore the fact that Palestinians have rejected a 2-state solution and have elected hamas themselves.
- ConorSheehan1 3y ago
  You seem to ignore the fact that hamas was elected in 2006 and has indefinitely postponed elections since then. Given the demographics most Palestinians weren't even alive when hamas was elected.
  - mupuff1234 3y ago
    That doesn't change the fact that it was elected in the first place, showing that at the time Gaza was not interested in peace. My point is that Palestinians have their share of blame.
- Arn_Thor 3y ago
  Remind me, when was the last time people in Gaza were given a chance to vote?
  - mupuff1234 3y ago
    Don't see why that changes what I said. Parent comment blamed everything on israel when clearly Palestinians have a fair share of blame - you can't deny that.
- 3y ago