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If you don’t trust Apple, then obviously you don’t use it. If you do, then it shouldn't be possible for a 3rd party client to break that trust. Users only see i

If you don’t trust Apple, then obviously you don’t use it. If you do, then it shouldn't be possible for a 3rd party client to break that trust. Users only see iMessage vs no-iMessage and have no other way to identify the client to decide for themselves whether to trust it.

johnbellone 3y ago
Not what he said. He said he doesn’t trust them (safe). The question you should be asking is why do you?
- cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
  [flagged]
- vGPU 3y ago
  Because they’ve proven to be the most trustworthy and if you can’t trust the manufacturer of the device and OS you also can’t trust any app running on said hardware.
thomastjeffery 3y ago
> If you do, then it shouldn't be possible for a 3rd party client to break that trust. A correctly implemented end-to-end encrypted protocol would be safe for all participating clients. The only way to break that security is by copying messages outside the protocol in the app itself. Neither of us knows whether iMessage or Beeper Mini does this. To bring up the possibility is to criticize both apps equally.
- willseth 3y ago
  > A correctly implemented end-to-end encrypted protocol would be safe for all participating clients. As long as the clients are closed source, this is a circular argument. The client itself is a vector. Not just for a good E2E implementation but for the 3rd party company to not outright steal everyone’s messages, create a backdoor, etc. You have to be willing to trust every client used in the thread.
  - thomastjeffery 3y ago
    That was my second point. If we must be willing to distrust one closed source client, then we ought to distrust both.
    - willseth 3y ago
      This is tantamount to saying we should only trust open source software. If that’s your point, then you lost me. If not, then it’s obvious that some companies are more trustworthy than others. (P.S. the many active exploits found in core low level open source software after months or years because despite the source being open almost no one audits it because they’re cheap and/or assume someone else is doing it)
      - thomastjeffery 3y ago
        Well why in the world would I trust iMessage and distrust Beeper Mini?
        willseth 3y ago
        Are you seriously asking why someone would trust Apple over a small generally unknown Android-only app company?
        CivBase 3y ago
        I don't actually think it's that unreasonable. Apple has broken people's trust many times and come out just fine in the end because they are a huge company with many products participating in many markets. A small company like Beeper is dependent on a small user base and a significant breach of trust could easily spell the end for them. That said, I don't personally trust either of them. When it comes to matters of security, I prefer open protocols which can be proven to be secure over pinky swears from companies.
        dwaite 3y ago

johnbellone 3y ago

Not what he said. He said he doesn’t trust them (safe). The question you should be asking is why do you?

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
[flagged]
vGPU 3y ago
Because they’ve proven to be the most trustworthy and if you can’t trust the manufacturer of the device and OS you also can’t trust any app running on said hardware.

thomastjeffery 3y ago

> If you do, then it shouldn't be possible for a 3rd party client to break that trust. A correctly implemented end-to-end encrypted protocol would be safe for all participating clients. The only way to break that security is by copying messages outside the protocol in the app itself. Neither of us knows whether iMessage or Beeper Mini does this. To bring up the possibility is to criticize both apps equally.

willseth 3y ago
> A correctly implemented end-to-end encrypted protocol would be safe for all participating clients. As long as the clients are closed source, this is a circular argument. The client itself is a vector. Not just for a good E2E implementation but for the 3rd party company to not outright steal everyone’s messages, create a backdoor, etc. You have to be willing to trust every client used in the thread.
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  That was my second point. If we must be willing to distrust one closed source client, then we ought to distrust both.
  - willseth 3y ago
    This is tantamount to saying we should only trust open source software. If that’s your point, then you lost me. If not, then it’s obvious that some companies are more trustworthy than others. (P.S. the many active exploits found in core low level open source software after months or years because despite the source being open almost no one audits it because they’re cheap and/or assume someone else is doing it)
    - thomastjeffery 3y ago
      Well why in the world would I trust iMessage and distrust Beeper Mini?
      - willseth 3y ago
        Are you seriously asking why someone would trust Apple over a small generally unknown Android-only app company?
        CivBase 3y ago
        I don't actually think it's that unreasonable. Apple has broken people's trust many times and come out just fine in the end because they are a huge company with many products participating in many markets. A small company like Beeper is dependent on a small user base and a significant breach of trust could easily spell the end for them. That said, I don't personally trust either of them. When it comes to matters of security, I prefer open protocols which can be proven to be secure over pinky swears from companies.
        dwaite 3y ago