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I suspect you ignore the history of terrorism by Irgun and the bombing of the King David Hotel, which house the British military command. Menachem Begin was a k

I suspect you ignore the history of terrorism by Irgun and the bombing of the King David Hotel, which house the British military command. Menachem Begin was a key player in that attack & was extremely proud of it. Who are the modern day parties following in those footsteps? Why Likud, & Begin was a co-founder of that very party— now led by Netanyahu.

YZF 3y ago
I think dang made a mistake by allowing this topic onto HN. Nothing good is going to come out of that. Begin is rolling in his grave as we speak. There is nothing between today's Likud and any historic version of that party. That's one thing. The Likud (under the leadership of Sharon, who is also rolling in his grave) is also the party that withdrew from Gaza and handed it to the Palestinian Authority, dismantling settlements (by force). The Likud (under Begin's leadership) was the party that made peace with Egypt and gave Sinai back, also dismantling Israeli settlements (by force). I don't think the history of the Irgun is really relevant here. At any rate, the views of the Likud shifted substantially and current party called "Likud" has really zero connection to the Likud at the time of Begin/Shamir/Sharon etc.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > dang made a mistake by allowing this topic Strongly disagree. There are honest debates and questions here. I am learning from them, though I’m also fact checking everything that surprises.
  - YZF 3y ago
    Too loaded. Too complex. Too many strong emotions/feelings. Destruction, death, loss. Amplified. Weaponized. I know I feel very strongly and it's hard to put things in objective terms. You need to zoom in, zoom out, the history is vast, there's the big picture, there are details. Most of what you'll encounter online and in the media, on both sides really, is propaganda.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      “I can’t even” isn’t a mature response to complexity.
    - master_crab 3y ago
      Stating “too complex” about any argument is a sure fire way to ensure no one gains any understanding about the topic. I hate sports analogies (doubly so with something as serious as this), but… you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take or the debates you don’t have.
    - markdown 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - edanm 3y ago
        It absolutely did. The world largely didn't know and/or ignored what was happening to Jews. Likewise with almost every other tragedy/war/genocide/whatever you prefer to call it that's happened in the world.
      - YZF 3y ago
        I didn't mean in general. I meant on Hacker News. How can you compare the war in Gaza to the systemic killing of Jews by the Germans is beyond me. The war in Gaza is devastating but on the scale of wars it pales compared to the war in Ukraine, or the war in Yemen, or the civil war in Syria, or the wars in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or any other major conflict in recent history. And none of these are comparable to WW-II or the Holocaust either. How can you compare the world today that is demanding of Israel to stop the war to the world that stood by and didn't do enough during the holocaust. If I draw graph where I plot all world conflicts in history, with one axis being the human toll (dead, injured) and the other axis being world response (not sure what metric we should use, I'll pick number of people marching in the streets), you'll see that Israel is being singled out in a negative way. And that's before we have the discussion of "right" vs. "wrong", "who started", or the other political and historical aspects. I disagree with "Palestinians being genocided". I think the word genocide should be used to describe some very specific circumstances and should not be used for violent conflicts even when very large number of people die. I think your statement would sound a lot hollower if we put in in more objective terms, let me rewrite that for you: "I wonder if that's the world felt if it wasn't 18,000 Palestinian deaths in war between Gaza and Israel following the Oct 7th attack on Israel but 6 million Jews who were systemically murdered by Hitler's Germany with the stated goal of murdering all Jews in Europe. The murders were carried out primarily through mass shootings and poison gas in extermination camps.".
- hodgesrm 3y ago
  > I think dang made a mistake by allowing this topic onto HN. Nothing good is going to come out of that. Actually I find the discussion on HN has brought up many useful insights on a complex conflict that provokes emotional responses. It's a model that many other communities could learn from.
meowface 3y ago
I wasn't ignorant of it - that's why I said "any modern Israeli party". I'm aware past Israeli/Zionist groups have engaged in terrorism and in some cases deliberate civilian massacres. As far as I know Likud hasn't within the past 50 years.
- markdown 3y ago
  What do you call what's going on right now, if not deliberate civilian massacres in order to get to relative handful of fighters hiding amongst them?
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Well, what other way is there? Hamas is a terrorist organization, with in the picture, there will never be peace. The only option thus is the most targeted elimination of all terrorists. Unfortunately, 100% specificity is impossible to achieve. So the question is, is Israel doing their absolute best on minimizing casualties or not? Do you have a reason to assume they don’t do so? The reported 2:1 ratio is absolutely in line with modern warfares, especially considering the very very densely populated urban environment.
    - account42 3y ago
      > Well, what other way is there? Hamas is a terrorist organization, with in the picture, there will never be peace. The only option thus is the most targeted elimination of all terrorists. And I'm sure you will accept Hamas strikes against Israel as justified as long as they deem the IDF as a terrorist organization? Or is it only your view of who is or is not a terrorist organization that matters? We should never let labels like "terrorist" be used to justify using any means neccassary to ensure their removal. There is always the null option - do nothing. How much civilian casualties are there with that option vs. indescriminate eradication of anyone near Hamas?
      - kaba0 3y ago
        The null “option” is forever letting Israeli civilians living in constant fear of rocket attacks. That’s no way of living.

YZF 3y ago

I think dang made a mistake by allowing this topic onto HN. Nothing good is going to come out of that. Begin is rolling in his grave as we speak. There is nothing between today's Likud and any historic version of that party. That's one thing. The Likud (under the leadership of Sharon, who is also rolling in his grave) is also the party that withdrew from Gaza and handed it to the Palestinian Authority, dismantling settlements (by force). The Likud (under Begin's leadership) was the party that made peace with Egypt and gave Sinai back, also dismantling Israeli settlements (by force). I don't think the history of the Irgun is really relevant here. At any rate, the views of the Likud shifted substantially and current party called "Likud" has really zero connection to the Likud at the time of Begin/Shamir/Sharon etc.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> dang made a mistake by allowing this topic Strongly disagree. There are honest debates and questions here. I am learning from them, though I’m also fact checking everything that surprises.
- YZF 3y ago
  Too loaded. Too complex. Too many strong emotions/feelings. Destruction, death, loss. Amplified. Weaponized. I know I feel very strongly and it's hard to put things in objective terms. You need to zoom in, zoom out, the history is vast, there's the big picture, there are details. Most of what you'll encounter online and in the media, on both sides really, is propaganda.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    “I can’t even” isn’t a mature response to complexity.
  - master_crab 3y ago
    Stating “too complex” about any argument is a sure fire way to ensure no one gains any understanding about the topic. I hate sports analogies (doubly so with something as serious as this), but… you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take or the debates you don’t have.
  - markdown 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - edanm 3y ago
      It absolutely did. The world largely didn't know and/or ignored what was happening to Jews. Likewise with almost every other tragedy/war/genocide/whatever you prefer to call it that's happened in the world.
    - YZF 3y ago
      I didn't mean in general. I meant on Hacker News. How can you compare the war in Gaza to the systemic killing of Jews by the Germans is beyond me. The war in Gaza is devastating but on the scale of wars it pales compared to the war in Ukraine, or the war in Yemen, or the civil war in Syria, or the wars in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or any other major conflict in recent history. And none of these are comparable to WW-II or the Holocaust either. How can you compare the world today that is demanding of Israel to stop the war to the world that stood by and didn't do enough during the holocaust. If I draw graph where I plot all world conflicts in history, with one axis being the human toll (dead, injured) and the other axis being world response (not sure what metric we should use, I'll pick number of people marching in the streets), you'll see that Israel is being singled out in a negative way. And that's before we have the discussion of "right" vs. "wrong", "who started", or the other political and historical aspects. I disagree with "Palestinians being genocided". I think the word genocide should be used to describe some very specific circumstances and should not be used for violent conflicts even when very large number of people die. I think your statement would sound a lot hollower if we put in in more objective terms, let me rewrite that for you: "I wonder if that's the world felt if it wasn't 18,000 Palestinian deaths in war between Gaza and Israel following the Oct 7th attack on Israel but 6 million Jews who were systemically murdered by Hitler's Germany with the stated goal of murdering all Jews in Europe. The murders were carried out primarily through mass shootings and poison gas in extermination camps.".
hodgesrm 3y ago
> I think dang made a mistake by allowing this topic onto HN. Nothing good is going to come out of that. Actually I find the discussion on HN has brought up many useful insights on a complex conflict that provokes emotional responses. It's a model that many other communities could learn from.

meowface 3y ago

I wasn't ignorant of it - that's why I said "any modern Israeli party". I'm aware past Israeli/Zionist groups have engaged in terrorism and in some cases deliberate civilian massacres. As far as I know Likud hasn't within the past 50 years.

markdown 3y ago
What do you call what's going on right now, if not deliberate civilian massacres in order to get to relative handful of fighters hiding amongst them?
- kaba0 3y ago
  Well, what other way is there? Hamas is a terrorist organization, with in the picture, there will never be peace. The only option thus is the most targeted elimination of all terrorists. Unfortunately, 100% specificity is impossible to achieve. So the question is, is Israel doing their absolute best on minimizing casualties or not? Do you have a reason to assume they don’t do so? The reported 2:1 ratio is absolutely in line with modern warfares, especially considering the very very densely populated urban environment.
  - account42 3y ago
    > Well, what other way is there? Hamas is a terrorist organization, with in the picture, there will never be peace. The only option thus is the most targeted elimination of all terrorists. And I'm sure you will accept Hamas strikes against Israel as justified as long as they deem the IDF as a terrorist organization? Or is it only your view of who is or is not a terrorist organization that matters? We should never let labels like "terrorist" be used to justify using any means neccassary to ensure their removal. There is always the null option - do nothing. How much civilian casualties are there with that option vs. indescriminate eradication of anyone near Hamas?
    - kaba0 3y ago
      The null “option” is forever letting Israeli civilians living in constant fear of rocket attacks. That’s no way of living.