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Even when dug out at some point, following a long and painful agony people crushed under collapsed buildings almost always die. Particularly in Gaza where medic

by wazoox 3y ago

Even when dug out at some point, following a long and painful agony people crushed under collapsed buildings almost always die. Particularly in Gaza where medical supplies are now non-existent. Lots of innocents are dying; there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it, under any circumstances. It's just wrong. It must stop, period.

proc0 3y ago
Yeah, that's pretty bad, but it lacks the terror and the brutality. Many people survive accidents of that magnitude and recover sooner or later. I cannot imagine being taken hostage, seeing your family members tortured and killed in front of you and dehumanized. I don't think anyone comes back from that.
- g8oz 3y ago
  You obviously have not seen the videos of incinerated children in Gaza.
kaba0 3y ago
> there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it Unfortunately, I don’t see any other way. But I would be very happy to know of any that will eradicate hamas, and let both sides’ civilians finally live in peace.
- digging 3y ago
  That's why Netanyahu has been funding and encouraging Hamas for decades. Now he has a perfect excuse to massacre Palestinians, because he has to bomb Hamas. The alternative, impossible, unthinkable, would be treating Palestinians with dignity and humanity, allowing them to live and flourish in their homeland, and giving them no reason to support Hamas. Netanyahu knows exactly what he's doing and has been doing and what we're seeing right now is his goal. He wants Palestinians gone.
- wazoox 3y ago
  You're taking it backward. You must not kill children. Everything else flows from this point. If your "solution" implies to kill children, it's not a solution, it's not defensible, it's not to be debated. Period. Else you're just as bad (or worse) as the other side. If you're not a fascistic fanatic (like the other side), then don't call for murder and crime (like the other side). Simple, uh? In war there can be no justice. Now consider what is more just: not killing perpetrators, or killing innocents? Obviously, not killing is preferable. As Socrates said 2400 years ago, it's worse to commit injustice than to suffer it. If you want an intelligent commentary on the current situation, please listen to Yuval Noah Harari on Sam Harris' podcast about this.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    So what is your solution? Not doing anything is always the easy way, but it’s not a way out of most problems. Life is not a zero-sum game — in most situations there is no zero-cost decision.
    - wazoox 3y ago
      There is a general human bias to do something, without considering if doing nothing could be better. Israeli people must jail Netanyahu and his gang and negociate seriously for a two-states solution. There is no other way out. Military retaliation has exactly zero role to play here. It only creates more hatred and more Hamas militants to come. https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-two-state-solution-is-still-best https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-two-state-solution-is-still...
      - gryzzly 3y ago
        cool, most reasonable people in Israel (or Israel sympathisers) would be happy to see Netanyahu in jail, and much more so after October 7. however, jailing Netanyahu and some of his buddies (I’d for sure also put Smotrich and Ben-Gvir in jail, but there are so many more), wouldn’t stop the rocket fire from Gaza – so what is to be done about the rocket fire and infiltration attempts (and, unfortunately, we know now that "iron dome" + "high tech fencing" is not the answer). So what a civilised country that values human life (especially of its own citizens) should do? What country in the world wouldn’t be running a military action against the rocket launching, hostage capturing, blood thirsty group financed by oil money?

by wazoox 3y ago

proc0 3y ago

Yeah, that's pretty bad, but it lacks the terror and the brutality. Many people survive accidents of that magnitude and recover sooner or later. I cannot imagine being taken hostage, seeing your family members tortured and killed in front of you and dehumanized. I don't think anyone comes back from that.

g8oz 3y ago
You obviously have not seen the videos of incinerated children in Gaza.

kaba0 3y ago

> there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it Unfortunately, I don’t see any other way. But I would be very happy to know of any that will eradicate hamas, and let both sides’ civilians finally live in peace.

digging 3y ago
That's why Netanyahu has been funding and encouraging Hamas for decades. Now he has a perfect excuse to massacre Palestinians, because he has to bomb Hamas. The alternative, impossible, unthinkable, would be treating Palestinians with dignity and humanity, allowing them to live and flourish in their homeland, and giving them no reason to support Hamas. Netanyahu knows exactly what he's doing and has been doing and what we're seeing right now is his goal. He wants Palestinians gone.
wazoox 3y ago
You're taking it backward. You must not kill children. Everything else flows from this point. If your "solution" implies to kill children, it's not a solution, it's not defensible, it's not to be debated. Period. Else you're just as bad (or worse) as the other side. If you're not a fascistic fanatic (like the other side), then don't call for murder and crime (like the other side). Simple, uh? In war there can be no justice. Now consider what is more just: not killing perpetrators, or killing innocents? Obviously, not killing is preferable. As Socrates said 2400 years ago, it's worse to commit injustice than to suffer it. If you want an intelligent commentary on the current situation, please listen to Yuval Noah Harari on Sam Harris' podcast about this.
- kaba0 3y ago
  So what is your solution? Not doing anything is always the easy way, but it’s not a way out of most problems. Life is not a zero-sum game — in most situations there is no zero-cost decision.
  - wazoox 3y ago
    There is a general human bias to do something, without considering if doing nothing could be better. Israeli people must jail Netanyahu and his gang and negociate seriously for a two-states solution. There is no other way out. Military retaliation has exactly zero role to play here. It only creates more hatred and more Hamas militants to come. https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-two-state-solution-is-still-best https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-two-state-solution-is-still...
    - gryzzly 3y ago
      cool, most reasonable people in Israel (or Israel sympathisers) would be happy to see Netanyahu in jail, and much more so after October 7. however, jailing Netanyahu and some of his buddies (I’d for sure also put Smotrich and Ben-Gvir in jail, but there are so many more), wouldn’t stop the rocket fire from Gaza – so what is to be done about the rocket fire and infiltration attempts (and, unfortunately, we know now that "iron dome" + "high tech fencing" is not the answer). So what a civilised country that values human life (especially of its own citizens) should do? What country in the world wouldn’t be running a military action against the rocket launching, hostage capturing, blood thirsty group financed by oil money?