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I think that forcing this dichotomy is part of the deliberate pro-Israel media strategy - if you despise Hamas inhumane acts, then of course you need to be pro-

I think that forcing this dichotomy is part of the deliberate pro-Israel media strategy - if you despise Hamas inhumane acts, then of course you need to be pro-Israel. They want you to focus on Hamas to steer away your attention from what Israel has been doing. (this is also one of the reasons why Hamas has historically been an asset for the Israeli right)

mhalberstram 3y ago
You're making a good point about the symbiotic relationship with the Israeli right. This reminds me of a recent interesting discussion on the Skeptics StackExchange: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/56315/did-netanyahu-express-support-of-hamas-in-2019 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/56315/did-netan...
- rjzzleep 3y ago
  The crazy thing is that the pro war machine talking heads keeps trying to make this about Iran, when it's really Qatar and Turkey financing Hamas, in part using illegal Oil sales from Syria. Nikki Haley was talking about "finishing them". It's also worth remembering that Hamas actively fought AGAINST Syria and it's allies(Iran) with the other Islamist rebels The US has huge military presences in both countries, and if they really wanted to shut down funding to those institutions they could do it tomorrow. We know that Netanyahu deliberated supported these groups to shut down opposition in Gaza by his own accord and that he has even recently asked to send more funding[1]. The talking heads also want you to believe that this is some sort of protection money out of goodwill for the poor civilians in Gaza. I listened to some Palestinians on twitter spaces the other day and they told explained to people how the political landscape is actually a lot more complex than we are led to believe from media. One person breaking down Hamas really well has been Brian Berletic from the new atlas[2]. Some people here might not like him, because he very much in favour of China, but I still urge everyone to take a look at his Palestine analysis. [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visited-qatar-begged-it-to-pay-hamas-liberman-says/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visit... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPJaNoxtE20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPJaNoxtE20
  - jjtheblunt 3y ago
    > The US has huge military presences in both countries, and if they really wanted to shut down funding to those institutions they could do it tomorrow. How?
    - fahhem 3y ago
      It's well-known in these areas that these sales are done through ships in the Mediterranean. The same US warship that captured the Somalis last week (initially they claimed to have caught Yemenis) could be focusing on those ships that take off from Turkish ports instead (or, really, in addition)
spookie 3y ago
Let's take a very clear, narrow lens on the issue. Let's also separate Palestinian civilians from those exerting power unto them in Gaza. I say this because any other way is a can of worms. How did Hamas come into power? What are its goals? What have they promised to do to accomplish those objectives? Their goals are of malicious intent, and they have demonstrated that they're willing to do anything to accomplish them. About innocent Palestinians, I understand their fears (at least I hope I do). But, _as of this moment_, focusing the narrative on them and Israel is just a cunning way to further drive a wedge between them, and muddle the waters.
- dh2022 3y ago
  Re: "Let's also separate Palestinian civilians from those exerting power unto them in Gaza" - I do not think you can. A lot of Palestinians are radicalized. What do you think a father who lost his kids in an airstrike will do next? Or a brother who lost his sister / brother? Do you think these people will care about rule of law, or turn the other cheek, etc...? Re: "any other way is a can of worms". I agree with this statement. Putting these two statements together means there will never be peace in Palestine. It sucks....
  - rjzzleep 3y ago
    I can tell you exactly how I would react if someone were to do something to my daughter, which is the biggest source of joy to me right now. So what exactly is your solution then? To create 10-20 times the suffering that has led to the growth of Hamas to begin with? But let's say, for the sake of the argument, that that line of reasoning is justified, which for the record, I don't think it is. How does that then justify the violence, and the killings happening in the West Bank? How does it justify shooting Palestinians in the US? Nobody here wants to hear it, but the only country that has gotten a hold of its Islamist terrorism problem without mass bombing is China. And contrary to what people in the US like to hear the Organization of Islamic Cooperation which comprises dozens of Muslim countries, have praised Chinas efforts to build infrastructure and schools. The US shouts about Uyghur rights all the time and then bombs them the moment they hang out with the Taliban for training[1]. Even the guy who came up with the Uyghur genocide says that the people working in the factories are treated well, and yet that's somehow a bad thing[2]. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-targets-chinese-uighur-militants-well-taliban-fighters-afghanistan-n845876 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-targets-chinese-uighu... [2] https://twitter.com/adrianzenz/status/1732406580623098274 https://twitter.com/adrianzenz/status/1732406580623098274
asylteltine 3y ago
[flagged]
- dotancohen 3y ago
  I suppose that these are people who do not understand Arab culture. Just recently (as in, I remember it was October 22 because I had an appointment in Beersheba that day) an Arab explained to me, more or less because the conversation was not in English, that "You Jews always argue and protest and fight with each other. We don't do that, we listen to our fathers. We have families". He was explaining to me how the different families fight between them, like they'll shoot at each others houses but the goal is to assert family honour, not to actually shoot somebody. But the point he was struggling to make, is that in Arab societies, everybody thinks the same. There is no room for division, no room for dissent, no room for contrary opinions. He specifically mentioned that he has family in Gaza (and yes, this was already two weeks into the current conflict) and everybody there is Hamas. He said "is Hamas", up to me (and you) to interpret that as being actual members of the organization or supporters. I actually talk to Arabs often here, and I don't shy away from the hard questions. The Beduins specifically will happily tell you all you want to hear, with me (maybe naively) feeling that I'm in danger. Just yesterday I had a half hour conversation with a Beduin about such matters, in my house as my guest.
  - mhalberstram 3y ago
    I know you're just sharing your personal experiences, but I got to say that this not only does not match my personal experience, but it also sounds very much like something you hear Israeli settlers say to justify settlement expansions and violence.
    - dotancohen 3y ago
      I would like to hear your personal experience, then. I've heard similar things from many Arabs, I often ask questions to understand their culture better. Most of my contact is with Beduins, just because we live close to each other.
thomastjeffery 3y ago
Dichotomy promotes the narratives of all belligerents.
YZF 3y ago
Hamas has been an assset for the Israeli right because it helps prevent a two state solution. The goal is really to weaken the Palestinian Authority. In recent years most of Hamas' crimes were against Palestinians and nobody cared. Forcing this dichotomy today is certainly a strategy but I don't think that was really a strategy pre-Oct 7th. I.e. I don't recall ever Israel trying to justify settler violence against Palestinians in the west bank as being a response to Hamas- wouldn't make any sense. In some perverse way, the objection to the two state solution forces the one state solution, which is likely the only solution that would ever work. Jews and Arabs living side by side in the same country as equal citizens. Hamas isn't interested in that solution either.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  > Jews and Arabs living side by side in the same country as equal citizens. Except that Israel has Arabs already, living side by side with the Jews there. Palestinians have rejected that.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - YZF 3y ago
    Yes yes. I'm from Israel. I know that story. Palestinians did not reject a one state solution. Most Israelis don't want that. I.e. annex the West Bank and Gaza and have a single country, let's call it "Israel-Palestine". I think the Israeli Arabs are a model/proof that it can work. It might need a generation or two to get there. If you want more radical ideas then if all Palestinian Arabs convert to Judaism we can also solve the problem pretty quickly...
    - rayiner 3y ago
      Arabs rejected a two-state solution at the very inception of Israel. An Arab majority Israel-Palestine would drive out its Jews, just as every other Arab country has done.
Aerbil313 3y ago
[flagged]

mhalberstram 3y ago

You're making a good point about the symbiotic relationship with the Israeli right. This reminds me of a recent interesting discussion on the Skeptics StackExchange: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/56315/did-netanyahu-express-support-of-hamas-in-2019 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/56315/did-netan...

rjzzleep 3y ago
The crazy thing is that the pro war machine talking heads keeps trying to make this about Iran, when it's really Qatar and Turkey financing Hamas, in part using illegal Oil sales from Syria. Nikki Haley was talking about "finishing them". It's also worth remembering that Hamas actively fought AGAINST Syria and it's allies(Iran) with the other Islamist rebels The US has huge military presences in both countries, and if they really wanted to shut down funding to those institutions they could do it tomorrow. We know that Netanyahu deliberated supported these groups to shut down opposition in Gaza by his own accord and that he has even recently asked to send more funding[1]. The talking heads also want you to believe that this is some sort of protection money out of goodwill for the poor civilians in Gaza. I listened to some Palestinians on twitter spaces the other day and they told explained to people how the political landscape is actually a lot more complex than we are led to believe from media. One person breaking down Hamas really well has been Brian Berletic from the new atlas[2]. Some people here might not like him, because he very much in favour of China, but I still urge everyone to take a look at his Palestine analysis. [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visited-qatar-begged-it-to-pay-hamas-liberman-says/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visit... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPJaNoxtE20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPJaNoxtE20
- jjtheblunt 3y ago
  > The US has huge military presences in both countries, and if they really wanted to shut down funding to those institutions they could do it tomorrow. How?
  - fahhem 3y ago
    It's well-known in these areas that these sales are done through ships in the Mediterranean. The same US warship that captured the Somalis last week (initially they claimed to have caught Yemenis) could be focusing on those ships that take off from Turkish ports instead (or, really, in addition)

spookie 3y ago

Let's take a very clear, narrow lens on the issue. Let's also separate Palestinian civilians from those exerting power unto them in Gaza. I say this because any other way is a can of worms. How did Hamas come into power? What are its goals? What have they promised to do to accomplish those objectives? Their goals are of malicious intent, and they have demonstrated that they're willing to do anything to accomplish them. About innocent Palestinians, I understand their fears (at least I hope I do). But, _as of this moment_, focusing the narrative on them and Israel is just a cunning way to further drive a wedge between them, and muddle the waters.

dh2022 3y ago
Re: "Let's also separate Palestinian civilians from those exerting power unto them in Gaza" - I do not think you can. A lot of Palestinians are radicalized. What do you think a father who lost his kids in an airstrike will do next? Or a brother who lost his sister / brother? Do you think these people will care about rule of law, or turn the other cheek, etc...? Re: "any other way is a can of worms". I agree with this statement. Putting these two statements together means there will never be peace in Palestine. It sucks....
- rjzzleep 3y ago
  I can tell you exactly how I would react if someone were to do something to my daughter, which is the biggest source of joy to me right now. So what exactly is your solution then? To create 10-20 times the suffering that has led to the growth of Hamas to begin with? But let's say, for the sake of the argument, that that line of reasoning is justified, which for the record, I don't think it is. How does that then justify the violence, and the killings happening in the West Bank? How does it justify shooting Palestinians in the US? Nobody here wants to hear it, but the only country that has gotten a hold of its Islamist terrorism problem without mass bombing is China. And contrary to what people in the US like to hear the Organization of Islamic Cooperation which comprises dozens of Muslim countries, have praised Chinas efforts to build infrastructure and schools. The US shouts about Uyghur rights all the time and then bombs them the moment they hang out with the Taliban for training[1]. Even the guy who came up with the Uyghur genocide says that the people working in the factories are treated well, and yet that's somehow a bad thing[2]. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-targets-chinese-uighur-militants-well-taliban-fighters-afghanistan-n845876 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-targets-chinese-uighu... [2] https://twitter.com/adrianzenz/status/1732406580623098274 https://twitter.com/adrianzenz/status/1732406580623098274

asylteltine 3y ago

[flagged]

dotancohen 3y ago
I suppose that these are people who do not understand Arab culture. Just recently (as in, I remember it was October 22 because I had an appointment in Beersheba that day) an Arab explained to me, more or less because the conversation was not in English, that "You Jews always argue and protest and fight with each other. We don't do that, we listen to our fathers. We have families". He was explaining to me how the different families fight between them, like they'll shoot at each others houses but the goal is to assert family honour, not to actually shoot somebody. But the point he was struggling to make, is that in Arab societies, everybody thinks the same. There is no room for division, no room for dissent, no room for contrary opinions. He specifically mentioned that he has family in Gaza (and yes, this was already two weeks into the current conflict) and everybody there is Hamas. He said "is Hamas", up to me (and you) to interpret that as being actual members of the organization or supporters. I actually talk to Arabs often here, and I don't shy away from the hard questions. The Beduins specifically will happily tell you all you want to hear, with me (maybe naively) feeling that I'm in danger. Just yesterday I had a half hour conversation with a Beduin about such matters, in my house as my guest.
- mhalberstram 3y ago
  I know you're just sharing your personal experiences, but I got to say that this not only does not match my personal experience, but it also sounds very much like something you hear Israeli settlers say to justify settlement expansions and violence.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    I would like to hear your personal experience, then. I've heard similar things from many Arabs, I often ask questions to understand their culture better. Most of my contact is with Beduins, just because we live close to each other.

thomastjeffery 3y ago

Dichotomy promotes the narratives of all belligerents.

YZF 3y ago

Hamas has been an assset for the Israeli right because it helps prevent a two state solution. The goal is really to weaken the Palestinian Authority. In recent years most of Hamas' crimes were against Palestinians and nobody cared. Forcing this dichotomy today is certainly a strategy but I don't think that was really a strategy pre-Oct 7th. I.e. I don't recall ever Israel trying to justify settler violence against Palestinians in the west bank as being a response to Hamas- wouldn't make any sense. In some perverse way, the objection to the two state solution forces the one state solution, which is likely the only solution that would ever work. Jews and Arabs living side by side in the same country as equal citizens. Hamas isn't interested in that solution either.

zozbot234 3y ago
> Jews and Arabs living side by side in the same country as equal citizens. Except that Israel has Arabs already, living side by side with the Jews there. Palestinians have rejected that.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- YZF 3y ago
  Yes yes. I'm from Israel. I know that story. Palestinians did not reject a one state solution. Most Israelis don't want that. I.e. annex the West Bank and Gaza and have a single country, let's call it "Israel-Palestine". I think the Israeli Arabs are a model/proof that it can work. It might need a generation or two to get there. If you want more radical ideas then if all Palestinian Arabs convert to Judaism we can also solve the problem pretty quickly...
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Arabs rejected a two-state solution at the very inception of Israel. An Arab majority Israel-Palestine would drive out its Jews, just as every other Arab country has done.

Aerbil313 3y ago

[flagged]